Obama supports "Ground Zero Mosque" (of course he does)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Because the original post is about exactly that, and nothing more.


So we should ignore what makes us "us" in the first place? Throw out the baby with the bathwater? Once again, I see you as being no different from them.


In our country the law is designed to protect the minority from abuses by the majority. You seem to be saying that we should remove our protections because they don't have the same values? We punish criminals for what they do, not what they claim to believe. You seem to think otherwise.


And I (and others) have repeatedly pointed out that things like Jihad need to be opposed, but unless the words are put into action then they are still protected speech. Just because you don't like what someone might do is not sufficient cause to change the laws. You want to stop people from destroying us by destroying what we are yourself. That makes you just as bad as they are.


And stopping them by destroying freedom yourself is better how, exactly?


Yes it is. But feelings and opinions do not supercede the law. Change the law if you like, but you will need to show how this can be justified. Otherwise it is indeed a Constitutional issue.


Totally irrelevant. The law applies equally to everyone. That you don't like it is why it's there in the first place.

In my country hate speech is protected - even yours.

I refer to our recent collision over the question of whether or not freedom must include the freedom for the other to destroy freedom (your position), or that freedom has the right to limit the freedom given to others at that threashold criterion where freedom gets abused to destroy freedom (my posiiton).

You can turn it any way you want - you are giving shelter and protection and safe harbour to an ideology that has sworn to destroy you for what you offer it, and that uses the freedom you give it to secure power and ultimate dominance for itself, by that destroying all those precious things you want to see being defended and protected, and installing pretty muczh the antithesis to your values and freedom instead. To allow that going on, is nothing but insane and self-destructive.

[SteamWake]

Hamas weighs in.

Looks like some of you have 'pleasent' comany.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...a8sNZMTDz0VVPI

Originally Posted by NY Post

A leader of the Hamas terror group yesterday jumped into the emotional debate on the plan to construct a mosque near Ground Zero -- insisting Muslims "have to build" it there.

"We have to build everywhere," said Mahmoud al-Zahar, a co-founder of Hamas and the organization's chief on the Gaza Strip.
"In every area we have, [as] Muslim[s], we have to pray, and this mosque is the only site of prayer," he said on "Aaron Klein Investigative Radio" on WABC.

Looks like some of you have 'pleasent' comany.

So that means if Christian Identity opppose the mosque you are in company with murdering racist scum who seek the to destroy the United States.
Well done Steamwake, your palling around with terrorists blows up in your face

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

So that means if Christian Identity opppose the mosque you are in company with murdering racist scum who seek the to destroy the United States.
Well done Steamwake, your palling around with terrorists blows up in your face

I'm not following you here. Christian racist scum whom seek to destroy the US? WTF where does that come from?

[antikristuseke]

A question to those who want to stop this building being built, what legal grounds do you have?

As far as I can tell you have none, hell, freedom of religion is even protected by your constitution.

I'm not following you here. Christian racist scum whom seek to destroy the US? WTF where does that come from?

Are you unfamiliar with some of the lunatic movements within the US?
Tough luck, if you support the same standpoint on an issue as some bunch of backwoods conspiracy nuts then in your own words you are keeping their pleasant company.

Unless of course you can now understand that what you wrote was pure rubbish that blew straight up in your face.

A question to those who want to stop this building being built, what legal grounds do you have?

None, which is why there was the lame attempt to seek historic preservation on the existing building.
Which wouldn't have stopped the building being used as a mosque anyway but would have added costs for the developer.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

A question to those who want to stop this building being built, what legal grounds do you have?

As far as I can tell you have none, hell, freedom of religion is even protected by your constitution.

What legal grounds to municipalities have to stop Walmart from building in their communities?

Answer that question and you'll figure it out.

(Hint: it's perfectly legal to withhold building permits in the interest of benefiting the peace of the public)

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Aramike

What legal grounds to municipalities have to stop Walmart from building in their communities?

Hint: None.

As for the Wal-Mart issue, Mayor Parker again emphasized that the city doesn't have jurisdiction on what a private land owner can build on the property.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=7604107

[Méo]

@ Skybird

I'd like to see you having a debate with Malek Chebel http://www.africansuccess.org/visuFi...id=561&lang=en

(Unfortunately there is some language barrier here)

----

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Are your politics based upon nothing more than Obama-hating?

Jeez, I had the impression that at least half of this forum was based upon this.

----

Muslims know they can't win be traditional methods, they are using our "tolerance" against us and it is just disgusting.

Try to replace the word ''Muslims'' with the word ''Jews'' in this ...just for the fun...

Government restricts construction all the time through zoning laws. Establishments which serve alcohol have to be a certain distance from schools, theoretically, the primary purpose of zoning is to segregate uses that are thought to be incompatible. Which may be the case with the NYC mosque idea.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Hint: None.



http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=7604107

Umm, wrong. Very much so.

We have zoning laws, for one. Do you honestly think someone would have, say, the Constitutional right to build a 50 story tower next door to an airport?

Here's a great line from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning

Theoretically, the primary purpose of zoning is to segregate uses that are thought to be incompatible. In practice, zoning is used to prevent new development from interfering with existing residents or businesses and to preserve the "character" of a community.

Emphasis mine, of course.

The Supreme Court has ruled again and again in favor zoning laws, and only facial challenge has ever be brough. Zoning laws were upheld in that case as well.

There ARE special considerations given to land to be used for religious purposes, but quite frankly I find that unConstitutional and offensive, and should a challenge ever come, this would be one time I'd be happy to have a left-leaning Supreme Court (although I suspect that any SCOTUS would overturn that aspect of the RLUIPA if a major challenge were ever presented).

In any case, my point is simple: legally, this construction COULD be legally averted (it happens all the time), and to suggest otherwise is a mischaracterization of what SHOULD be the debate - that being whether or not issuing the permit was the right thing to do.

That in general is the problem I have with political hacks on both sides - they are always attempting to excuse their decision-making with this notion that they have no other choice. Sure, they had a choice and they made it.

Here, let's try another hypothetical: I want to start a new church. A church where nude women swing around on poles and offerings are taken in the form of dollar bills. I want to place that establishment in a location across from an elementary school that is commercially zoned.

Would you issue that permit?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

A question to those who want to stop this building being built, what legal grounds do you have?

As far as I can tell you have none, hell, freedom of religion is even protected by your constitution.

You are correct but the Constitution also affords us the right to complain, voice our opinions and be a general nuisance...within the law of course. Many are exercising that right under the Constitution.

I believe the objection to this building is based on a moral stance to be sure. Many feel that Islam is thumbing their nose at the US by building this structure very close to the World Trade Center grounds. Perhaps some are not seeing this as a religious house of worship but a political statement.

[SteamWake]

Heh I heard of a guy who wants to build a deli meat (including sausage) store accross the street from the Mosque.

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Heh I heard of a guy who wants to build a deli meat (including sausage) store accross the street from the Mosque.

I presume he will be making pork sausage.

Take a look at the nature of the pig for example. The pig is naturally lazy and indulgent in sex, it is dirty, greedy and gluttonous. It dislikes sunlight and lacks the spirit and will to "fight." It eats almost anything, be it human excreta or anything foul and unwholesome. Amongst all animal flesh, pork is the favoured cradle of harmful germs. Pork also serves as a carrier of diseases to mankind. It is for this reason that its flesh is not suitable for consumption.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

You are correct but the Constitution also affords us the right to complain, voice our opinions and be a general nuisance...within the law of course. Many are exercising that right under the Constitution.

I can understand and respect that. It is just that the thread has touched upon legalities so I wanted to clear things up for myself.
I am not opposed to bitching about things you don't like, that is a right as is responding to the bitching with counter bitching, turning it into a never ending cyclone of bitchage, which can either be bitching or more annoying than a bitch in heat (some dog owners can attest to that).

I believe the objection to this building is based on a moral stance to be sure. Many feel that Islam is thumbing their nose at the US by building this structure very close to the World Trade Center grounds. Perhaps some are not seeing this as a religious house of worship but a political statement.

And this is what I really take objection to, treating islam as if it was a single conscious entity. It is not, there are as many interpretations of islam as there are of christianity, just lumping it all into the same pot is far to great of a generalisation to be acceptable in my book.