GM's 'Volt'...

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

In an attempt to return to the topic.......



Has anyone actually seen a performance envelop for this car?

What is its top speed? What is its top speed with the battery depleted?

What is considered a 'cruising' speed? What is the acceleration when the battery is depleted.

I get the feeling that this car will be hugging the right hand lane if you get my meaning.

I would imagine it would be similar to other gas electric hybrids.

It looks like a heavy car IMHO though i dont know what the curb weight is, i would imagine it would be similar to any other small to mid sized sedan based on looks alone.

Unfortunately, i dont think the day will come where there will be no use for oil. It is a necessity, and probably will be for another 50+ years.

Too many applications rely heavily on oil for fuel and lubrication. Even with electric vehicles, parts will be required to be lubricated and greased, some oil production will be required for this to take place.

one other thing nobody has mentioned is that oil will always be expensive no matter the demand.

here is what i hypothesize.

As demand decreases in the future due to the implementation of electric cars, solar power etc etc the number of producers of oil will also diminish.

this means that as the demand decreases, so will the price, quite steadily. Yet as demand continues its down trend... production will be forced to decrease. this raises the possibility that so few companies will be in the oil production and refining business... it will possibly become a "specialty" of sorts. thus increasing the price.

fortunately, as reliance on oil is also deeply reduced... it will be a cost we can afford as moving parts on vehicles aside from the engine require infrequent lubrication and fluid changes.

This is why i rip on cars like the volt. Though such hybrid electric vehicles are a step in the right direction, it would seem that the step is a little miscalculated or misguided.

Hybrid electric vehicles do extend fuel efficiency of a vehicle, but by how much? what is the life span of an electric or electric hybrid car? By what means do we dispose of the batteries when they are depleted or no longer any good? how much does that cost?

One thing the world needs to do is get on the same page with regards to oil dependency.

do we want to be completely oil free?

do we want to reduce oil consumption by 20%? 50%? or even 75%?

how much burden do we want to place on the average joe? (because i promise, if its going to cost Joe 2 years worth of income in taxes alone just to make the nation oil free... he probably wont go for that plan)

additionally, many nations around the world are not even remotely in a position to abandon oil and "upgrade" to another energy source... and those nations which produce oil wont have any incentive to back changes.

the higher that percentage of reduction goes and the more changes we make to oil dependency etc, the less viable hybrid vehicles become because they still use fossil fuels, they still use internal combustion engines, some of which require almost a gallon and a half of oil for engine lubrication alone, not to mention the oil used on fuel production.

I have said it before and i'll say it again... we need a 10-20 year plan for the implementation of readily available, stylish, desirable and useful all electric vehicles. tax incentives for those who purchase them. Rebates for the recycling of fossil fuel burning vehicles.

if we want to take steps to independence from oil... we need to take aggressive yet calculated steps, and i maintain that hybrids are just a temporary fix to high summer fuel prices and do not IMHO address the long term financial and environemental problems posed by oil dependency.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

I would imagine it would be similar to other gas electric hybrids.

I dont think so. Typical hybrids the internal combustion engine is directly coupled to the drive. In the vold it is a generator that is coupled to an electric motor. Any 'excess' is diverted to the batterys for charging.

Big difference. Electric motors can draw up to and over 600% of their 'normal' current when being started. That huge inrush current can bring a generator to its knees.

But I was wondering if the performance data is available I would like to see it.

You know I would even consider buying one of these things if they could make it competitively priced... a 7.5 thousand tax break 'incintive' aint going to do it for me I am afraid.

Although @$41,000 I consider it too expensive I might consider a vehicle with a switch which allows me to run on gasoline until I run out and then go to the battery so I can find a gas station.

Just a thought.

[yubba]

take a peek at this and

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

how much burden do we want to place on the average joe? (because i promise, if its going to cost Joe 2 years worth of income in taxes alone just to make the nation oil free... he probably wont go for that plan)

I'm going to say a dirty word here: Deficit Spending. Because.........

additionally, many nations around the world are not even remotely in a position to abandon oil and "upgrade" to another energy source... and those nations which produce oil wont have any incentive to back changes.

If we suddonly produce massive amounts of an alternative source of energy we are in a position to sell that energy at lower prices than the oil producing nations sell their product to developing nations. Now we are the leader in the market and we are exporting rather than import our energy source then we slowly pay off the debit we accumulated.

In other words we take a hit in the wallet now to drive everyone else out of the market. Then pick up the pieces.

[mookiemookie]

The oil companies will fight any attempt to change, kicking and screaming. Their very existence is threatened by attempts to wean ourselves off of oil. They will throw every last dollar they have into lobbying if it means not just their continued existence, but their continued dominance and market position in energy industry. Do you think they'll stand idly by as they're made obsolete? Until we have politicians that are willing to forego those lobbying dollars and campaign contributions, nothing will happen to extract big oil's claws from us.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

The oil companies will fight any attempt to change, kicking and screaming. Their very existence is threatened by attempts to wean ourselves off of oil. They will throw every last dollar they have into lobbying if it means not just their continued existence, but their continued dominance and market position in energy industry. Do you think they'll stand idly by as they're made obsolete? Until we have politicians that are willing to forego those lobbying dollars and campaign contributions, nothing will happen to extract big oil's claws from us.

Thanks to BP that may change. Those who accept donations from Big Oil may find them selves voted out now.

If it weren't for British Petroleum this well would still be flowing oil. Never forget that.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Until we have politicians that are willing to forego those lobbying dollars and campaign contributions, nothing will happen to extract big oil's claws from us.

Except for an increase in the price of oil. And I don't mean an artificial increase through legislation, either, I mean a nice, natural market-based increase. Or spike. Whatever.

You clearly have a distaste for Big Oil, and I can't say I blame you. Like any entity with enough power, they have a tendency to overreach and do less-than-reputable things. However, the same insatiability for profits will drive them to continue providing some kind of petroleum substitute or alternative long after the oil is gone. TBH, I think they already have one, but since drilling is cheaper they just use that.

If it were up to me, I'd take the leash off of Big Oil and just let them go to town. No taxes, other than an effluent tax, no trade restrictions, no quotas, no embargoes, no drilling restrictions on land they own. However, as long as I'm pretending that I have such fiat power, I'd also curb legislative power across the board to the point of near-impotence that would require a supermajority for any minor legislative or regulatory powers left not already set in stone. Who ya' gonaa lobby now A-holes? I guess you'll have to provide a good or service at an agreeable price.

Granted, there will be places where they'll charge whatever the market will bear, but I don't see that as a problem. IMO, many people are too quick to see themselves as victims of a power far greater than themselves, or worse, see themselves as entitled to a share of that power and wealth, and too many ambitious politicians are too quick to take advantage of that. For some reason, people tend to forget that they also have power as consumers and employees and informed voters. I'm not afraid of Big Oil. Big Oil is my, for lack of a better word, biatch. Big Oil is my employer's biatch. They will give us oil at a reasonable cost or we'll simply take our business elsewhere. Failing that, we'll just use something else, or we'll make our own oil, or we'll cut back on our usage. We may even organize to bring prices down. Monopsony is monpoly's more powerful twin.

[Zachstar]

Except when OPEC and other cartels decide to make you their Biach instead.

But the "Watercar" nonsense isnt helping people get off oil. HHO as a way to make an engine more efficient is sane but running a car on water is not. I dont know how many times I have seen these crazy "Vacuum energy generators" Or other bullcrap but they have one thing in common. They usually have a big youtube video or news item and promptly vanish. Often with investor money.

The only one I follow these days is Blacklight energy. Which sticks around and posts updates which give atleast some entertainment and discussion value.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Zachstar

Except when OPEC and other cartels decide to make you their Biach instead.

I'm almost at a loss to describe how incorrect this statement is.

You remind me of me when I was a lot younger, Zach. I was all over this energy-crisis, fossil-fuel, foreign-oil, doomsday BS. It took me a long time to realize that I'd been had. As with most scares, there really wasn't much of a threat at all, just people with an agenda who needed people to be scared.

I don't think I can blame you for seeing things the way you do. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that you learned a lot of the same things in public school that I did in the arena of environmental science and what they call somehow call "economics" with a straight face. I did science projects comparing the efficiency of various alternative energy sources, and wrote essay after essay on alternative energy policy for various courses. It wasn't until after I got out of high school that I realized that most of what I'd been taught in those areas was pure bunk.

Public schools, being the unionized and publicly-funded institutions that they are, are extremely vulnerable to both political currents and people who find it acceptable to work in publicly-funded and unionized intstitutions. This is why our schools are so awful despite the hundreds of billions of dollars we throw at them. What is supposed to be a place of learning quickly becomes a vector for the ideals of people who have no interest in how anything works beyond their own self-interest and whatever pandering politicians peddle to them. This is how we end up with a mandatory public institution that tells us we're running out of energy or that the earth is dying. Most of the time, there's some kind of other agenda behind this crap, and it's usually some kind of anti-corporate message based on people wanting free stuff. The funny thing is that these same people are foolish enough to believe that the government is so magnanimous or virtuous to give them what they want despite the fact that it's made up of people who are just as bad as any greedy CEO, but with fiat power. That's how we end up with asshead politicians and laws that nobody has been happy with, ever. But I digress.

The point is that what you have been taught is wrong. OPEC cannot bend us over the barrel, so to speak, because it needs us to buy their oil. We also have untapped reserves of our own. We have a virtual monopsony on oil consumption. If a producer loses the US market, they're sunk. Even with China on the rise, and India making a pathetic socialist attempt to keep up, no producer can afford to lose the US market. To make matters worse for them, they're inextricably intertwined with US-based shipping and refining firms.

If we were smart, we'd completely eradicate all taxes and tariffs on the oil business, thus guaranteeing that our position as not only the largest market but the most profitable one, barrel for barrel, and force OPEC into meeting our demands by sheer virtue of market force. We might even become an exporter in our own right by importing foreign oil for cracking before it is shipped elsewhere. But of course, we won't do that because we have too many Marxist bastards with votes who want free stuff gumming up the works.

I gather that alternative energy is a passion of yours, and that's ok. We need people like you to innovate and exert pressure on domestic industry for energy alternatives. Just have a care, especially when considering state funding. You may well end up charging off on some crusade to inadvertently further the interests of a bunch of lazy jerks.

[Zachstar]

First take your union busting bull and take a hike.

Second you don't know me. I am not you when you were young I am educated enough to know what is what.

Third eradicate oil taxes? are you nuts?

Edit: 4th you seem to be on a crusade against "Lazy Jerks" are you one of these republicans that thinks of little more about how some welfare user is stealing your two cents you throw into the US treasury?

[yubba]

Here's the choice we could build veicles that run on alternative fuels and develope alternative fuels ,or continue giving billion's of dollars to energy providers that hate us. What has gone on about energy here in the states is a joke . The Volt is a joke, US energy policy is a joke, 100 dollars a barrel for oil will be a joke, Cap en Trade is a joke. Only way to turn around the economic down turn is to have cheap clean energy , so the cosumer has more money to spend on other goods. So when gas goes over 5 dollars a gallon I wonder what a can of peas will cost.