LWAMI 3.09-3.10 bug advisory and request for help

[Gorshkov]

@goldorak: What about becoming to know what this forum exists for?

@LWAMI Team: Your PSL values are ridiculous:

- American: Seawolf, Virginia: 55, 55
- Russian: Graney, Borey: 55, 56

Sorry but I didn't know such amazing PSL levels can be achieved after rusting 15-20 years in Russian shipyard and not having any technological progress in that time due to economic crisis and fall of Soviet R&D base. Strictly speaking I have to use DWEdit to correct these funny values to 57 and 58 respectively for both "brand-news" Russkie nuclear subs founded on 20 years old Soviet technology. I suppose in real life noise level of both these subs is most probably not much better than old Akulas but I won't waste my time to edit all Russian subs PSL values in the LWAMI 3.10 mod. Well, I also tuned PSLs of Astute to 56, Akula II's to 58 and Victor III Imp to 63 so now nuclear subs noise level seems to be rational enough:

- Russia: Victor III 67, Victor III Imp 63, Akula I 63, Akula I Imp 59, Akula II 58, Borey 58, Granay 57

- US: LA 62, LA Imp 58, Seawolf 55, Virginia 55

- UK: Switfsure 63, Trafalgar 59, Astute 56

And please don't give me an explanations like "game-play balance" and similar BS.


PS. Well, it seems that someone have already changed both values to 56 and 57 respectively as I noticed in DWEdit. That was move in right direction but rather too short one, I am afraid.

[Molon Labe]

Don't you think you're splitting hairs when your preferences are only a point off from where ours are?

The LWAMI values are based on publicly available charts on noise levels. Subs not on those charts are estimated based on the sub type, country, and year, as well as any information noted about those platforms regarding whether they are unexpectedly noisy or quiet for their generation.

[Gorshkov]

I think your pics look well but they are a bit far from reality as for latest Russkie nuclear subs.

After I spent a lot of time researching area of Russia's weapons development programs since 1991 I am sure my estimates are more precise than those present in LWAMI because they only show faulty constant linear estimation of noise reduction level along with time which was not the case. Moreover above values refers only to theoretical Russian subs noise levels - in real terms they are now louder due to bad maintenance and prolonged build-up periods. I think both lead ships of Borey and Graney classes are more noisy than they should. Conventional subs are another story but Russia lost technological race here too. Lada's AIP propulsion turned out to be a complete disaster and moreover all AIP technology based on electric sources is false path as Germans discovered lately. Now only Stirling engine technology is sole proper AIP solution - "Long live to Sweden!"

We shall see how this situation evolves but it is rather certain those days Russia will be able to keep race in the nuclear subs stealth with Chinese only because US Navy is outside their reach. Well, during last 20 years China spent a lot of time and effort copying latest Soviet submarine technology with help of hundreds "imported" Russian naval scientists and now PRC possesses at least Delta IV and latest Victor III technology with rather bright future in sight [095, 096, 097(?) sub types] - Chinese Navy is raising as hell while Russian Navy is declining rapidly.

Anyway test detection radii of Seawolf/Virginia (PSL=55) against Graney/Borey (PSL=57/58) and vice versa.

[Molon Labe]

Until better sources become available, I'll stick with the graphs, thanks. If it's any consolation to you, the Russian subs in general have a steeper sound-speed relationship, so the base PSLs make US and Russian subs more even than they are practically in the simulation.

[Gorshkov]

I am afraid "better sources" about latest nuclear subs are top secret. That is why we have to stick on indirect data and make some realistic estimates basing on many factors. Taking all that into account I think Russian shipbuilding industry is now finished once and for all. Read Russian military press if you speak Russian. Often very interesting data can be found there. Expect no Russian Seawolfs, buddy.

Anyway the basic trend is clear: Russkies go down while Chinese go up. In the near future Russia will become weapon importer, not exporter - exactly opposite as China. Can you believe that? Twenty years ago this county was able to produce almost all kinds of known weapons itself...

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

I am afraid "better sources" about latest nuclear subs are top secret. That is why we have to stick on indirect data and make some realistic estimates basing on many factors. Taking all that into account I think Russian shipbuilding industry is now finished once and for all. Read Russian military press if you speak Russian. Often very interesting data can be found there. No Russian Seawolfs, buddy.

Anyway the basic trend is clear: Russkies go down while Chinese go up. In the near future Russia will become weapon importer, not exporter - exactly opposite as China. Can you believe that? Twenty years ago this county was able to produce almost all kinds of known weapons itself...

if your indirect sources are nothing more than heresay then the better solution is to stick to published public sources. Wether they are american or russian. Otherwise any dude can come up and say, "the cousin of the cousin of my cousin told me that the virginia could go to 42 knots. I swear it". Ok 42 knots max speed it is.
Sticking to published sources is the right thing to do, because except for officers/sailors that work onboard subs (and know its secret characteristics, and performance) for the rest of us, thats 99% the rest of us such data is simply not available.
What are your realistic estimates ? You realise that your realistic estimates are as good or bad as any other realistic estimate ?
And that the only correct values are known only to a few people ?

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

I am afraid "better sources" about latest nuclear subs are top secret. That is why we have to stick on indirect data and make some realistic estimates basing on many factors. Taking all that into account I think Russian shipbuilding industry is now finished once and for all. Read Russian military press if you speak Russian. Often very interesting data can be found there. Expect no Russian Seawolfs, buddy.

Anyway the basic trend is clear: Russkies go down while Chinese go up. In the near future Russia will become weapon importer, not exporter - exactly opposite as China. Can you believe that? Twenty years ago this county was able to produce almost all kinds of known weapons itself...

Of course the best sources are top secret, that's why we have to go by the best data out in public and estimate the rest based on that data!

Regarding the Chinese and Russians, that is an interesting development. The Chinese are still decades behind the Russians in submarine manufacturing, but they'll catch up pretty quickly once they decide to make it a priority. It's amazing to see how quickly they've developed their ASUW capabilities and, more recently, their AAW systems. They do an excellent job reverse engineering Western and Russian designs while adding their own adaptations in the process.

I hadn't really considered whether the Russians would need to start importing, but I think you're right. Shipbuilding at a minimum is in shambles, and any defense industry in general needs consistent spending to keep the factories in shape, which means the whole Russian defense industry is probably equally screwed. That is, unless their export sectors can keep parts of their industry alive, even if the Russian military themselves can't afford the equipment. Flanker exports seem to be doing well, along with several missile designs.

[Gorshkov]

@goldorak: Read again what I wrote and don't be funny again.

@ML: You are wrong thinking Chinese are decades behind Russkies in the submarine technology. They are now pretty close! Chinese have Delta IV and Victor III technology for sure and what is more important they grabbed Russian know-how thanks to hiring many unemployed Soviet naval specialists. What you also should take into consideration is huge Chinese intelligence activity in the all post-Soviet space which resulted in gaining plethora of interesting stuff there. Well, I am not sure if PRC did not also capture Akula and Borey level of technology that way. In sum next generation of Chinese nuclear subs after 093 and 094 types will be on par with latest Russian models. Moreover Chinese established robust military industry while Russian military industrial complex is in ruins. The best proof is now PRC offers domestic Flanker's copy for export so Russian export incomes will drop considerably!

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

@goldorak: What about becoming to know what this forum exists for?

@LWAMI Team: Your PSL values are ridiculous:

- American: Seawolf, Virginia: 55, 55
- Russian: Graney, Borey: 55, 56

Sorry but I didn't know such amazing PSL levels can be achieved after rusting 15-20 years in Russian shipyard and not having any technological progress in that time due to economic crisis and fall of Soviet R&D base. Strictly speaking I have to use DWEdit to correct these funny values to 57 and 58 respectively for both "brand-news" Russkie nuclear subs founded on 20 years old Soviet technology. I suppose in real life noise level of both these subs is most probably not much better than old Akulas but I won't waste my time to edit all Russian subs PSL values in the LWAMI 3.10 mod. Well, I also tuned PSLs of Astute to 56, Akula II's to 58 and Victor III Imp to 63 so now nuclear subs noise level seems to be rational enough:

- Russia: Victor III 67, Victor III Imp 63, Akula I 63, Akula I Imp 59, Akula II 58, Borey 58, Granay 57

- US: LA 62, LA Imp 58, Seawolf 55, Virginia 55

- UK: Switfsure 63, Trafalgar 59, Astute 56

And please don't give me an explanations like "game-play balance" and similar BS.


PS. Well, it seems that someone have already changed both values to 56 and 57 respectively as I noticed in DWEdit. That was move in right direction but rather too short one, I am afraid.

CNO CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY: House National Security Committee Testimony, 1996 Defense budget, February 22, 1995:
“... The Russians today have six submarines at sea that are quieter than the 688(I)s, our best submarine.
This is the first time since we put Nautilus to sea that they have had submarines at sea quieter than ours. As you know, quieting is everything in submarine warfare.”
But even as these words were spoken, the Soviet era had given way, and the submarine warriors had a few years to rest on their laurels.

Under the statement of the representatives US NAVY, on operative speeds about 5-7 kts, noise submarines such as Improved Akula, fixed means of hydroacoustic investigation, was less noise USS such as Improved Los Angeles. According to the chief of an operative department US NAVY of the admiral Jeremy Boorda, the American subs were not able to accompany Improved Akula on speeds less than 6-9 kts (contact to a new Russian sub was held in the spring of 1995 at east coast of USA.


And statement by Norman Polmar:

As the Soviet submarine force advanced in these areas, U.S. submarine leaders held to the view that the U.S. submarine force was superior because of our lead in acoustics or quieting. There were, however, ominous signs that the Soviets were making progress in submarine quieting. The Soviet Akula class, which went to sea in the mid-1980s, was far quieter than expected. The Akula's appearance led to a House-sponsored study that concluded that because of Soviet submarine acoustic quieting, "We believe that the [U.S.] Navy must, in effect, 'start over' in its approach to ASW."

Addressing specific Soviet submarine developments--called into focus by the unexpected low noise levels of the Akula--the report continued:

... it is true that the Soviets' submarine R&D [research and development] program is extremely ambitious, [it] seems to over-look no promising technologies, and--in that it dates back many years--is no flash in the pan. As a result of their years of intensive research it appears that the Soviets may well be ahead of us in certain technologies, such as titanium structures and control of the hydrodynamic flow around a submarine.

But far more important is the improvement that the Soviets have made in submarine quieting. The problem is not that Soviet submarines are now quieter than ours; they are not. But after decades of building comparatively noisy submarines, the Soviets have now begun to build submarines that are quiet enough to present for us a major technological challenge with profound national security implications.

The Improved Akula SSN, which went to sea in 1990, soon revealed that the Soviets had surpassed the U.S. Navy in some areas of acoustic quieting--the Improved Akula was quieter than our newest attack submarines, the Improved LOS ANGELES class. Admiral J.M. Boorda, the Chief of Naval Operations, told the House:

This is the first time since we put NAUTILUS to sea that [the Russians] have had submarines at sea quieter than ours. As you know, quieting is everything in submarine warfare.

While we are told that the SEAWOLF is the quietest submarine in the world, one wonders if we have "all" the data needed to evaluate the acoustic signature of the Akula II, and the potential noise level of the Russian SEVERODVINSK, now on the building ways. If the past is any guide to the future, it is likely that the SEVERODVINSK will be significantly quieter than the Akula series--and quieter than the SEAWOLF, which was designed several years before the SEVERODVINSK. Discussions that I have had with senior officials of Russia's Rubin and Malachite design bureaus reinforce the view that future Russian submarines will be quieter and have significantly improved performance.

True, the size of the Russian submarine force has been cut in half; relatively few submarines are going to sea; and the construction of new submarines is proceeding at a sluggish rate. But the Russian submarine force remains, in the words of the U.S. Director of Naval Intelligence, the "technological pacing challenge."

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

do you remember "missile gap" and race to the Moon? That is how this machine works.

yea sure, explain why the US Atlas V rockets use Russian Proton Engines? Or why the Russian moonship the Soyuz is still flying as the shuttle is about to bite the dust?

A Ukrainian firm Antonov is about to drop it hat in the the ring for the USAF's new tanker. Politics will dictate that they don't get it but Antonov heavy lift aircraft are just as good if not better than our Lockheed C-5s. In fact the An-124 ships a lot of US and European aircraft and space gear around like the Centaur stage of the aforementioned Atlas V.

Originally Posted by -GrayOwl-

<SNIP>

Great post there GrayOwl, we used several Norman Polmar publications as source material.

[dd149]

Lets us not be driven to sterile and sometimes offensive comments here. We are all glad the the game improves due to a joint effort of the community, whether we are from US, Russia, Belarus, various European countries or others, and the forums allow us to debug and exchange on the game, let us not waste them for one-sided arguments. We French people have always been listened to and had the chance to convince RA team to issue a new French playable, We have also exchanged with both RA and Lwami teams for sound levels and so on, but we respect their ultimate decisions, they are the one who do the hard works, it is easy to criticize, but without them and their availability, DW would still be in infancy and abandoned by Sonalysts.

[Gorshkov]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

yea sure, explain why the US Atlas V rockets use Russian Proton Engines? Or why the Russian moonship the Soyuz is still flying as the shuttle is about to bite the dust?

- First think about lamentable end of such thing like...Buran.

- Second you should know after USSR's collapse US also robbed Russkies from some interesting pieces of Soviet technology for testing or their own use. Nothing strange here because in few selected areas Soviets possessed good stuff.

- Third think about MIR space station's fate and who was sending in outer space so called "space tourists" and why.

A Ukrainian firm Antonov is about to drop it hat in the the ring for the USAF's new tanker. Politics will dictate that they don't get it but Antonov heavy lift aircraft are just as good if not better than our Lockheed C-5s. In fact the An-124 ships a lot of US and European aircraft and space gear around like the Centaur stage of the aforementioned Atlas V.

Yes, An-124 is as good as C-5 but unfortunately it appeared 25 years later. Well, another example of Russian lead in high-tech...by the way Russkies still cannot produce powerful high-bypass turbofans engines because the sole such engine's producer - a "Motor-Sich" factory - remained on Ukraine. Well, US designed such engines during C-5 program about 45 years ago and now third generation of HBR engines is in use in the West.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

- First think about lamentable end of such thing like...Buran.

- Second you should know after USSR's collapse US also robbed Russkies from some interesting pieces of Soviet technology for testing or their own use. Nothing strange here because in few selected areas Soviets possessed good stuff.

- Third think about MIR space station's fate and who was sending in outer space so called "space tourists" and why.

The Buran was killed due to funding not to any technical or deisgn flaw, in fact it was in many ways a more refined design than the STS.

We didn't steal the Russian engines for the Atlas V, it was good so Rocketdyne partnered with the Russians to build them.

What about Mir? The lessons learn from it will prove useful in any future Mars missions- that was part of its purpose. So they sent some paying customers up for a ride? They beat Branson too it!

Yes, An-124 is as good as C-5 but unfortunately it appeared 25 years later. Well, another example of Russian lead in high-tech...

Something to be said about letting the other guy make all the screw ups for you.