Patroling submerged

[Red Devil]

Originally Posted by BillBam

Just because early war doctrine and early war captains used faulty methods doesn't mean we are required to follow their mistakes. They didn't sink much in those early years either. I have been using the Donation Narwahl in my current career (7 patrols in) and have found it dives in more than enough time to evade detection with SD radar.

Thats cause they had crap torps!

[Armistead]

Only time I patrol underwater is to yo you in a S boat since sonar only works dived.

[Bubblehead1980]

Was in no way saying anyone had to patrol submerged.Just saying since the pre war tactic of being a slightly mobile minefield, just staying under during day and surfacing at night was very common first couple years of the war, I began to follow the doctrine if playing in 41, 42 and early 43 because it adds to the challenge.Once I get into late 43 and on I stay on surface most of the time as they did in RL. Up to the player of course. One boo boo they made is giving us the TBT from day one of the war, US subs didnt do night surface attacks ( few brave skippers who winged it and did night surface attacks without training) until 43 or so.Again, up to player.

[Rockin Robbins]

What they don't tell you is that the reason tactics changed wasn't that the captains changed their minds. The ostriches who hid all day were fired and sent to pound sand on the beaches of Japanese infested islands and new blood, who were willing to fight their boats were brought in to get the job done.

The one who made that happen was Admiral Lockwood, who wasn't afraid to make wholesale changes necessary to get some production out of the boats. It wasn't as if they were really safe hiding underwater all day anyway. It wasn't as if changing the plan to surfaced patrol was going to cost more American lives. It was that those sacrifices would actually have some justification when the submarines were producing victory instead of pursuing some pipe dream of just trying to survive.

Lockwood had no sympathy for that view. You fought your boat or you became cannon fodder on a beach somewhere. At least there you weren't endangering 60 other good men.

[Bubblehead1980]

yea, makes you wonder how things wouldve turned out if sub force had not been in the hands of a wise man like Lockwood. I knew Captains didnt suddenly change their mind, the ostrichs were sent packing and the new guys were given free reign for the most part to sink, sink and sink some more.

Not sure if youve ever played a patrol, esp an early war patrol using the old tactics of staying submerged all day and surfacing at night, what a different game, give it a try in early war if you havent, you seem to like a challenge Robbins

[Red Devil]

Lockwood saved the subs skins no doubt. he also listened to the captains reports about the magnetic detonators. Nobody else did.

[WarlordATF]

Another point is the early war Captains were under orders to stay submerged all day, during pre-war training if even your periscope was sighted during wargames you were disiplined and could even lose your command.

To call these men cowards or ostrichs is a dis-service to them. Many could not fight their boats and lost their commands because alot of the Torps couldn't hit a anchored target at point blank range.

We all have that friend that knows everything and you can not change their minds until they are completely proven wrong. Thats how the Navy Brass was and they risked these mens careers and lives because they just couldn't be wrong.