Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

According to Finnish media a new aid ship is approaching Gaza.

I hope Israel won't back up on this one. They have every right to enforce the blockade, no matter what the UN or the almighty media says. If they intend to run the blockade again against warnings, I say blow the ship clean out of water. That should give the 'peace activists' something to think about. Fricking idiots.

[GoldenRivet]

Torpedo the damned thing and be done with it.

[Skybird]

It was a mistake to let the so-called activists leave Israel - the crew of the Rachel Corrie said they have enough funding in their movement to already having become busy to assemble a second, even bigger fleet, and that they again want to board the ships in order - so they explicitly said - to break the blockade. you can offer them first class express delivery via land route, they will not accept it. there is a chance that Turkey will officially fund and support it. Which borders an open war declaration against Israel in my understanding, since Turkey knows there is a blockade in place.

That those 10,000 tons of cement the confiscated five ships had loaded, amongst other goods, are to be used to build more Hamas bunker networks like those the Israelis already had so much trouble with in Southern Lebanon, and that Hamas demands to be in control, of distributing the medical drugs and items so that it can boost it'S popularity with palestinians, so far nobody of these activists showed any care for.

Meanwhile Israeli media reveal that the intel situation was sub-optimal, to say the least, and that they had expected only light or no resistence (I wonder why). Video released this morning plays communications of surprised soldiers who reported that they were under live fire from all directions, and that every member of the boarding team was waited for by an orgainsed lynch mob.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177229

The following is a transcript of the dialogue heard in the IDF clip:

- I need reinforcements here with me
- He wants to pass underneath
- Wait, one is in front of me
- It's coming from all directions
- We need to be evacuated, now
- Tell him that he's close already-
- Real weapons, real weapons (ie.guns)
- They have real weapons?
- Yes, yes, real weapons
- They are firing on us
- There is live fire below
- Live fire below
- Live fire here
- Shoot him where is he?
- Negative

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177186

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...tilla-1.293748

Israel is with its back against the wall. Either it accepts terrorism striking Israel again several times per day and Hamas boosting it's position amongst Palestinians, or it directly fuels the international antisemitism by defending itself - and Hamas again boosting it'S popularity.

Hamas must go. This can only be acchieved by Palestinians sending it to hell themselves(unlikely), or Israel destroying Gaza completely and by that: Hamas as well (difficult). Having Obama in the WH, does not help the situation, of course. Yesterday I read that the WH tries to support coups to overthrow the current Israeli government. Slowly but surely I really become furious about this wellmeaning dilletantic dreamer being so very much in denial of realities.

Regarding Turkey, I can give Israel only one advise: ignore it, do not trust it, don't let Turkey influence your decisions.

[Bilge_Rat]

great thread, good posts by everyone.

lets step back a second and look at this micro to semi-macro, without going all the way back to 1947.

1. the boarding: everyone agrees it was not handled well, poor intelligence, poor planning and people died. It should never have happened and hopefully when the Rachel Corrie is stopped, it wont.

2. the decision to board: that is a no brainer, once the decision is made to have a blockade, you have no choice but to enforce it, which includes stopping ships which try to force it and not submit to a search. Any naval power on earth enforcing a blockade would do exactly the same thing.

3. should we have a Blockade? that is a more thorny question which is tied in with how do you deal with Hamas. Israel has tried various methods to deal with Gaza and/or Hamas: military occupation (pre-2005), unilateral pullout including removing Israeli settlers (2005), negotiated ceasefires (2009 and 2010), military offensive (2009), indirect negotiations with Hamas through Egypt and Germany, none have worked.

If Hamas would act as a responsible power and prevent the launching of attacks on Israel from its territory, we could have a deal. Israel has made deals with terrorist organizations before, namely Arafat's PLO, but how do you deal with a government that does not recognize your right to exist and encourages or actively launches military weapons at your territory?

The Blockade, where basic hunanitarian aid, such as food and medicine is let through, but weapons are stopped, appears to be the only practical and least destructive alternative. It is not the perfect solution. Everyone realizes it is a blunt instrument, but the only other option is to do nothing and hope Hamas will realize it is doing a bad thing.

[Oberon]

The blockade is needed, otherwise Syria and Iran would ship god knows what into Gaza, and since Israels navy isn't as big as the US navy, they can't stop and search every nook of every single ship that heads for Gaza.
The only concern I have is whether enough aid is getting to Gaza, although, like with many nations in disarray, even if aid does get to Gaza it would likely wind up in the hands of Hamas and not the people.
It's damn tricky...damn tricky indeed, and it'll happen again and again until the objective of isolating Israel from the world is achieved. That's the corner...and that's a bloody dangerous place to put a nation, particularly one with nuclear weapons. Iran and North Korea are different, Iran has Russia to ensure its continued survival and the knowledge that it has a vast area to conquer and contain if anyone tried to invade. North Korea has China on side to keep it safe from the world. But Israel...Israel is surrounded by nations who want to destroy it, and the only thing keeping them from doing so is the United States and the knowledge that if Israel knows that all hope is lost, it will launch everything it has.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

There is a good quote from an Israeli general Moshe Dayan:

"Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Oberon

The blockade is needed, otherwise Syria and Iran would ship god knows what into Gaza,

Why do you conclude that Iran would deliver hightech missiles to Gaza just because they deliver hightech missiles to the Hezbollah in Lebanon? Hezbollah and Hamas have nothing to do with each other, and there cannot be peace if one always assumed just the worst of intentions in the other!

and since Israels navy isn't as big as the US navy, they can't stop and search every nook of every single ship that heads for Gaza.

Bah, there is this great and fabulous EU navy mission patrolling offcoast of Lebanon. Let them handle Gaza as well. They haven't found any thing serious in Lebanon, so in Gaza they will not find anything as well. Et voilá - peace! The good things come all by themselves to those that just sit and wait!

There is a good quote from an Israeli general Moshe Dayan:

"Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."

Goodness gracious - how uncivilised!

[MH]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Why do you conclude that Iran would deliver hightech missiles to Gaza just because they deliver hightech missiles to the Hezbollah in Lebanon? Hezbollah and Hamas have nothing to do with each other, and there cannot be peace if one always assumed just the worst of intentions in the other!

What a pure hearted speculation...you must be really nice person but naive man.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally stated by OTH - quoted (and so I actually saw it at first) by another poster:

Where are Americans being murdered? Or Israelis for that matter? All I see are aggressive wars and murderous acts committed by these two nations.

Finally we see the proof of the matter. Where are Israelis being murdered? All he can see is the fault of these nations...

In addition, Hamas leaders seem to have claimed that rocket attacks against Israeli civilians are justified as part of their resistance tactics against Israeli occupation. In an interview on May 5, head of the Hamas political bureau Khaled Meshal appeared to acknowledge that Hamas rocket attacks intentionally targeted Israeli civilians. In the course of describing why Hamas had decided to stop firing rockets for the time being, Meshal said:
"Not targeting civilians is part of an evaluation of the movement to serve the people's interest. Firing these rockets is a method and not the goal. The right to resist the occupation is a legitimate right but practicing this right is decided by the leadership within the movement."
Any party which partakes in hostilities, irrespective of the basis on which they assert a right to do so, must comply with the laws of war which provide that civilians are protected from attack and prohibit directing attacks against civilian objects and attacks that will have indiscriminate or disproportionate impact on civilian objects.
According to the website of the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the group launched 345 Qassam rockets, 213 Grad rockets, as well as mortar rounds and other munitions from December 27, 2008 to January 18, 2009. The Qassam Brigades website claimed responsibility for each of the three Israeli civilian deaths caused by rocket attacks in late December 2008, which Human Rights Watch investigated.
Previous Qassam Brigades statements also indicated an intent to target civilian areas. A Qassam Brigades statement dated June 11, 2006, said that in response to an Israeli attack that targeted a group of fighters, that the group had carried out a rocket attack against Sderot and would continue attacking Sderot "until its residents flee in horror. We will turn Sderot into a ghost town."
The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas struck by the rockets indicates that many of these attacks are deliberately intended to strike Israeli civilians and civilian structures.
In addition the rockets fired by Hamas and other armed groups cannot be reliably aimed. Civilian structures damaged in Israel by rocket attacks since December 27, 2008 include a kindergarten, a synagogue and private homes. The inability to fire these rockets with any degree of accuracy has resulted in rockets also striking areas inside Gaza: on December 26, 2008 a Palestinian rocket hit a house in Beit Lahiya, killing two Palestinian girls, ages 5 and 12. Under applicable international humanitarian law, such weapons are inherently indiscriminate when directed towards populated areas.
Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have also violated the laws of war by firing rockets from within populated areas. While fighting in urban areas is not prohibited under the laws of war, firing rockets from within or near populated areas places Palestinian civilians at grave risk of Israeli counter-attacks, and violates the laws-of-war obligation to take all feasible precautions to avoid placing military targets within or near densely populated areas and to protect civilians from the danger resulting from military operations.

Source - Human Right Watch: http://www.hrw.org/en/node/86177

Hamas own words - they are "evaluating" when to target civilians. They intentionally put civilians in danger by their actions - yet want to scream when those same civilians are harmed because of their proximity to Hamas.... Makes perfect sense... NOT!

But of course, OTH will try and claim that they are somehow justified in targetting civilians, while the IDF is to be eviscerated for using lethal force after being attacked by knife and metal rod bearing pro-hamas "peace activists".

And he probably wonders why he is landing on so many ignore lists......

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Video released this morning plays communications of surprised soldiers who reported that they were under live fire from all directions

And where are those guns now pray tell? How about the ammo? How about the shell casings?

Israel is with its back against the wall. Either it accepts terrorism striking Israel again several times per day and Hamas boosting it's position amongst Palestinians, or it directly fuels the international antisemitism by defending itself - and Hamas again boosting it'S popularity.

False dichotomy. If Israel got serious about peace and not making "facts on the ground", and if the US showed it could be a neutral partner and actually hold all sides accountable for once, who knows what would happen.

Regarding Turkey, I can give Israel only one advise: ignore it, do not trust it, don't let Turkey influence your decisions.

That's right Israel, continue to thumb your nose at the world (all criticism stems from anti-semitism, you see). It's working out so well.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Torpedo the damned thing and be done with it.

I was thinking the same for two days.

Originally Posted by Happy Times

I was thinking the same for two days.

Easy for you and GR to say something like that but it would be Israel who would have to carry the responsiblity for it. How about you two go and do it yourselves, I don't think the Israelis want to take orders from you two.

[Weiss Pinguin]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Easy for you and GR to say something like that but it would be Israel who would have to carry the responsiblity for it. How about you two go and do it yourselves, I don't think the Israelis want to take orders from you two.

You know there's a funny picture thread as well Weiss Pinguin.

Hope the Israelis didn't put a bullit into this old ladies head.

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/...onvoy/?ref=rss

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Hope the Israelis didn't put a bullit into this old ladies head.

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/...onvoy/?ref=rss

Awww, here comes the media trying to make people sympathetic towards the "peace activists". She knew where the vessel was going and what they were doing.

[Safe-Keeper]

The level of condemnation of this incident is frankly astounding. Is it really that hard for people to take a step back, check out the facts, and then form an opinion+