Why I've decided not to buy, or own, SH5 (and I hope Ubi reads this)

[THE_MASK]

I boughjt SH5 because its fun to play . With the mods we have already its the best silent hunter game .

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Brunos

I'm not against the ppl that has a full right to toss this game (at current state) into the garbage bin, but I feel that this thread is one of many to face a lockdown sooner or later. Simply because Subsim.com is way too friendly to UBI no matter what crap they're making, Subsim sour cream will stay solidary quiet and better not talk about bad things themselves, moreover every thread that comes with titles of any form against UBI, SH5 or DRM are actively monitored by moderators, for simple reason to look for "overedged" comments and then as an excuse to use it for locking it up..

I don't care if you like DRM. I don't care if you think it the sign of the Apocalypse. All I care about is that you don't talk about circumventing copy protection here.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Brunos

This is for Subsim itself, or for Neal to care less about Subsims spiritual wealth by spreading propaganda that: "SH5 crap is actually a chocolatte cake, you just don;t know it yet (or will be someday)".

Care to point us to the propaganda?

What I've seen since browsing the SH5 forums is the usual assortment of questions, AAR's and so forth, and the usual "hate mail" type of stuff that comes with any new release. But maybe I missed the force-feeding of "SH5 is good"?

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Brunos

The pressure to stay positive or be quiet is in the air despite it's not written. The quantity of locked up threads gives it away. Obviously they were created by some pissed to death ppl about SH5 that is not acceptable by posh Subsim policy. Whatever..

It is what it is. Truth be told, I bet once some patches are released the air will clear up a bit. In the meantime, we'll probably see more back-and-forth and lockdowns. It's difficult for me to see the heavy-handedness I've read about, mainly because I don't post much up here, and also because it's exactly the same as any other forum (for new games) I've frequented in the past. As for "freedom of speech", well, John Channing made a good point earlier. Also recognize that it stops where the hardcore moderation must begin. It's up to us as members to decide how to reign ourselves in without moderator intervention.

Hang out in General Topics for awhile, have a laugh or two.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Brunos

All I'm saying is: All that comes naturally should not be restricted. Emotions makes us humans not a machines. As they say it should be a mature forum ? What makes all of us mature ? Age or the way you treat yourself and others ? If somebody doesn't like natural emotions since they're too old to express them themselves is only their own problems. Or should we gather here on the day of first pension and act in cold-grey stable boring way ? If somebody so desperately wants to be that mature please add the age confirmation tab prior registration for everyone new to know this place as for old codgers..

This place isn't just for old cogders, although guys like Steve and Jim are both welcome here. Rather it is a place for civility in discussion. That is what sets SubSim.com apart from other types of gaming forums, including the ones that you, evidently, are accustomed to.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by krashkart

Also recognize that it stops where the hardcore moderation must begin. It's up to us as members to decide how to reign ourselves in without moderator intervention.

Excellent. That is exactly the point, and why this forum has had the success it has. Frankly, I wish you'd post more.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

This place isn't just for old cogders, although guys like Steve and Jim are both welcome here. Rather it is a place for civility in discussion. That is what sets SubSim.com apart from other types of gaming forums, including the ones that you, evidently, are accustomed to.

Precisely why I recommend going to General Topics to see how heated debates are handled there. And believe me, there are some heated debates in there. I don't recall seeing a locked thread in GT since I joined, and so far only one member who frequents that forum is in the brig at the moment. We tend to keep things pretty clean on our own, despite our many differing views.

Originally Posted by Brunos

All I'm saying is: All that comes naturally should not be restricted. Emotions makes us humans not a machines. As they say it should be a mature forum ? What makes all of us mature ? Age or the way you treat yourself and others ? If somebody doesn't like natural emotions since they're too old to express them themselves is only their own problems. Or should we gather here on the day of first pension and act in cold-grey stable boring way ? If somebody so desperately wants to be that mature please add the age confirmation tab prior registration for everyone new to know this place as for old codgers..

Brunos, emotions certainly do make us human. I won't argue that. What makes Subsim mature is not age, it's behavior. What I'm trying to help you understand is that you have the right to speak freely. If I see a thread get locked down, I know that someone had to do their job. Doesn't really hurt my feelings any, and when you get right down to it it doesn't affect my rights as a member in any way. I can still speak freely as I wish. The trick is in knowing what is appropriate and what is not.

If nothing else, don't try to press the issues too hard - especially here in the SH5 forum. I think the moderators are probably fed up with some of the nonsense that has sprouted up over the last couple of months. As I have pointed out before, when a new game is released things tend to get really hairy until the first patch or two come out. Subsim is trying to keep the place from going to hell in a handbasket (as has happened on so many other sites). If that happens, then it's difficult for anyone to enjoy spending time here. Enjoy your time here. That's really what Subsim is all about.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by krashkart

Precisely why I recommend going to General Topics to see how heated debates are handled there. And believe me, there are some heated debates in there. I don't recall seeing a locked thread in GT since I joined, and so far only one member who frequents that forum is in the brig at the moment. We tend to keep things pretty clean on our own, despite our many differing views.

It's pretty good down there right now, but it has, historically, been the 'trouble' forum. I used to moderate that one back during the previous few US election cycles. Ugly. Frankly, SH5 is, comparatively, a cake walk. The locked thread volume on this forum is nothing compared to GT about a year ago.

[scrag]

schlechter pfennig - good point and well written.

It is unlikely that UBI will change it's stance - it is unfortunate that SHV was used to help launch DRM (which by what I was told from UBI is here to stay).

I have played subsims for a long time - my first game was GATO from SPECTRUM HOLOBYTE so I have seen a few of these.

Despite the eye candy and other window dressing IMHO UBI failed to deliever a reliable product and failed to deliever a SUB SIM vice hybrid RPG/SIM.

That being said I can only hope that Modders continue working on SHIV.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

It's pretty good down there right now, but it has, historically, been the 'trouble' forum. I used to moderate that one back during the previous few US election cycles. Ugly. Frankly, SH5 is, comparatively, a cake walk. The locked thread volume on this forum is nothing compared to GT about a year ago.

Wow, that I did not know. Haven't been around here long enough I guess.

[John Channing]

You are spouting absolute nonsense. What Subsim is (or should be) is very adequatley summed up here (from the Subsim FAQ)...

The Radio Room forum is not the place for flaming, spewing, or otherwise mouthing off. We do not allow posts where people are called idiots, morons, etc. We respect your freedom of speech, we ask that you respect our rules. You are welcome to express your opinion about games and other subjects. We do not want SUBSIM Review and the Radio Room forums to degenerate into a collection of *This game sux!!!!* and other immature rants. Like something or dislike something about a game, express your thoughts in reasoned and responsible terms. There are any number of forums which allow unbridled idiocy to reign, we want the Radio Room to be a civil, mature forum for discussions about naval and subsims, tactics, mods, playing tips, troubleshooting, and submarine topics in general.

Now, if you are incapable of posting in a mature fashion then that is going to be a problem. Other than that knock yourself out.

JCC

[Méo]

Originally Posted by John Channing

You are spouting absolute nonsense. What Subsim is (or should be) is very adequatley summed up here (from the Subsim FAQ)...

Now, if you are incapable of posting in a mature fashion then that is going to be a problem. Other than that knock yourself out.

JCC

Thanks.

Seems like few members here forgot that.

[NefariousKoel]

Originally Posted by John Channing

You are spouting absolute nonsense. What Subsim is (or should be) is very adequatley summed up here (from the Subsim FAQ)...



Now, if you are incapable of posting in a mature fashion then that is going to be a problem. Other than that knock yourself out.

JCC

I think he's put forth a relatively reasonable and mature view on what he perceives around here.

He doesn't need intervention, warnings, or chastising. While he's correct about mods being rather one-sided around here, you guys have exercised restraint more than some would when faced by the angry villagers with pitchforks and torches. I believe Neal has some thanks due for keeping everyone level-headed (including mods) during the backlash, judging by a comment of yours awhile back:

Originally Posted by John Channing

We seem to have a lot of new people here who don't know how to, or are incapable of, carrying on a civil discussion. Neal seems to want to allow this for the time being... so be it. But that doesn't mean that people who disagree with the anti-Ubisoft posts have to hide away and let the ranters run wild, does it? Or are they the only ones now allowed to express their opinions?

(my bold)

It does tend to give the impression that the metaphoric itchy finger was on the trigger at some point and you don't seem to be the only one. I try to be empathetic as to mods having to read too much stuff they don't care, don't agree with, or don't want to read while trying to stay somewhat impartial and sane. Considering that, all has gone fairly well even though sentiment and opinion has been involved from everyone and, perhaps, further measures were desired.

Being moderators who are willing to state their opinions on same message boards will always result in some who disagree with them feeling as if they're walking a thin line.

I've not seen anyone kicked for stating their opinion without large amounts of cursing, yet, so it's all good.

[MILLANDSON]

Originally Posted by Brunos

Talks about copy protection is only a tiny peace of rules to obey here and the most particular to follow and control. What I wanted to point out is more abstract thing as a freedom of speech by expressing your opinion in cold or hot condition depending on frustration ppl has here about the game. You think in this place here the freedom of speech exist ? Well it depends on your attitude.

Well no, it doesn't depend on your attitude. The answer is no, freedom of speech doesn't apply here, just as it doesn't apply on any other forum or website on the entirety of the Internet.

I'll assume you are pointing towards the US Constitutional right to free speech in your comments (though the right to free speech included in the European Convention of Human Rights also falls under this). If you look at them properly, as with the "free speech" laws of any other nation, you'll find it only ever applies to what the government can or can't stop you saying. "Freedom of Speech" doesn't apply to private individuals or groups stopping you from saying things.

This forum is not run by the US government (or whatever government you care to mention), and so any laws governing freedom of speech do not apply here, have never applied here, and will likely never apply here. Since they don't apply here, you have to follow the rules, and if a mod calls you up on it, there's nothing you can do about it except do what they say, because that's how it works on forums.

Damn, I wish people would actually read into this stuff before they start spouting off about how they should be able to say what they want because they have "free speech". To anyone with any knowledge of politics or law (I happen to have a degree in each), it just makes them look silly.