a story of patriotism...

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

nope, all he did was raising our flag and refusing to lower it when asked. It isn't illegal to raise the Dutch flag ANYWHERE so they shouldn't even have asked him.
He did resist the officers, but only after he was arrested and cuffed. Most of the 'disturbance' was done by the other people protesting against him being arrested.

Not a good idea to resist officers of the law. That is too bad. The raising of the flag would probably be thrown out of court (since you are saying it is not illegal). But the resisting of the officers, might not.

The time to resist a law officer is in court and you don't do it physically.

I have been arrested twice in my life. Both times I was "Mr. Cooperative" Both times the charges were dropped (I did not do anything illegal) and both times the officers thanked me for not making a fuss.

Anyway, I hope your father will be OK. Perhaps the resisting/disturbing charges will be dropped. Let's hope your father learned his lesson.

[CaptainHaplo]

First of all - I salute your father.

He stood up for something he believed in - though I do have to say his CHOICE in HOW he did it did push some boundaries, freedom has never been cheap.

Political correctness will kill us if we allow it. At least some are still willing to say enough is enough!

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Anyway, I hope your father will be OK.

thanks

Perhaps the resisting/disturbing charges will be dropped. Let's hope your father learned his lesson.

that's another difference between the US and here, in the Netherlands resisting officers of law is seen as much less severe as in the US. That's why he isn't charged with that.
Anyway, he's free again, if they haven't got a good reason to hold you they must release you after 20 hours, which is exactly what happened.
That is why I think the charges will be dropped eventually, if they had any good reason to hold him they would have done so.
It's not that I'm afraid he'll be prosecuted - instead I'm rather outraged you can get arrested for something simple like waving a flag in a civilized country like the Netherlands.

I don't think he learned his lesson however. I know him too well for that

[Shearwater]

I don't see why a Dutch flag is supposed to be a sign of protest against building a mosque.

Hope your father's alright.

[Highbury]

I respect your father for standing up for what he believes in.

That said, I think it is naive and overdramatic to say he was arrested for "showing a little patriotism". He was obviously arrested for participating in disorderly conduct in a town meeting. Whether he was waving a flag or a soiled pair of boxers the result would have been the same, the flag is irrelevant.

[Dan D]

Well, a city council meeting is not a place like the Muppets show, I would assume, where visitors occupy the balcony seats and can heckle the performances like Statler & Waldorf do and e.g. insult “Fozzie Bear”, the dubiously talented but irrepressible stand-up comic bear, aka the council member you voted into the office, because of the bad jokes he makes.

Could it be that your father pulled a Statler & Waldorf stunt?

[Skybird]

Jaja. Another bad example of how Europe gets destroyed. Another example in a long list of example that does not stop.

I'm currently reading a good, a very good book, "Kritik der reinen Toleranz", which is nothing but a fully loaded broadside against the Political Correctness brigade. It is polemic in tone, but is loaded from top to bottom with materiual and examples illustrating how our societies get destroyed by home-made insanity and determination to be weak and meaningless. The argument and the sharp thinking behind the aggressive polemic tone shows that the polemic is not serving a self-purpose to earn some laughter, but ist just this: a desperate attempt to get heared in this European cacophony of insanity and madman's yelling. Reason, and better argument, even the obvious example itself - in today's discussion will not get listend to anymore.

For readers in German langauge, highly recommended. But you will not make yourself any friends by showing the cover anywhere.

Hope your Dad is well, and tell him he should spit out and hold his head up high when he is released.

http://www.amazon.de/Kritik-reinen-T...4892424&sr=8-1

"In einer Gesellschaft, in der ein Regierender Bürgermeister" - he means the gay mayor of Berlin, Klaus Wowereit - "die Teilnehmer einer SM-Fete persönlich in der Stadt willkommen heißt; in einer Gesellschaft, in der ein rechtskräftig verurteilter Kindermörder Prozeßkostenhilfe bekommt, um einen Prozeß gegen die Bundesrepublik zu führen zu können, weil er noch nach Jahren darunter leidet, daß ihm bei der Vernehmung Ohrfeigen angedroht wurden;" - in order to save the abducted child's life that then was still alive, but imprisoned at an unknown location - "in einer Gesellschaft, in der jeder frei darüber entscheiden kann, ob er seine Ferien im club Med oder in einem ausbildungslager für Terroristen verbringen möchte," - in German law, seeking training as a terrorist in terror camps cannot be punished or prohibited, only the use of the won knowledge for terror attacks is illegal - "in einer solchen Gesellschaft kann von einem Mangel an Toleranz keine Rede sein.

Dermaßen praktiziert ist Toleranz die Anleitung zum Selbstmord. Und Intoleranz eine Tugend, die mit Nachdruck vertreten werden muß.

On the issue of islam and more mosques - instead of the Saudi money these mosques will cost being invested into integration efforts for Muhammeddans and projects to educate their criminal and asocial youth population - I must not say anything anymore. You all know how much I despise Islam, and Islamic migration to europe.

[Skybird]

Opening speech of Geert Wilder's trial over banning free speech and independent thinking in Holland:

Mister Speaker, judges of the court, I would like to make use of my right to speak for a few minutes.
Freedom is the most precious of all our attainments and the most vulnerable. People have devoted their lives to it and given their lives for it. Our freedom in this country is the outcome of centuries. It is the consequence of a history that knows no equal and has brought us to where we are now.
I believe with all my heart and soul that the freedom in the Netherlands is threatened. That what our heritage is, what generations could only dream about, that this freedom is no longer a given, no longer self-evident.
I devote my life to the defence of our freedom. I know what the risks are and I pay a price for it every day. I do not complain about it; it is my own decision. I see that as my duty and it is why I am standing here.
I know that the words I use are sometimes harsh, but they are never rash. It is not my intention to spare the ideology of conquest and destruction, but I am not any more out to offend people. I have nothing against Muslims. I have a problem with Islam and the Islamization of our country because Islam is at odds with freedom.
Future generations will wonder to themselves how we in 2010, in this place, in this room, earned our most precious attainment. Whether there is freedom in this debate for both parties and thus also for the critics of Islam, or that only one side of the discussion may be heard in the Netherlands? Whether freedom of speech in the Netherlands applies to everyone or only to a few? The answer to this is at once the answer to the question whether freedom still has a home in this country.
Freedom was never the property of a small group, but was always the heritage of us all. We are all blessed by it.
Lady Justice wears a blindfold, but she has splendid hearing. I hope that she hears the following sentences, loud and clear:
It is not only a right, but also the duty of free people to speak against every ideology that threatens freedom. Thomas Jefferson, the third President of the United States was right: The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
I hope that the freedom of speech shall triumph in this trial.
In conclusion, Mister Speaker, judges of the court.
This trial is obviously about the freedom of speech. But this trial is also about the process of establishing the truth. Are the statements that I have made and the comparisons that I have taken, as cited in the summons, true? If something is true then can it still be punishable? This is why I urge you to not only submit to my request to hear witnesses and experts on the subject of freedom of speech. But I ask you explicitly to honour my request to hear witnesses and experts on the subject of Islam. I refer not only to Mister Jansen and Mister Admiraal, but also to the witness/experts from Israel, the United States, and the United Kingdom. Without these witnesses, I cannot defend myself properly and, in my opinion, this would not be an fair trial.

But today, defending freedom and free speech, criticising islam, standing up for europe's own grown, historical cultural identity and values, earns you a label of being "right-winged", a "hate-criminal", an "islamophobe", "intolerant" (my favourite!) .

The wiser head gives in, they say. That's the reason why the stupid and ignorrant rule the world today.

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Shearwater

I don't see why a Dutch flag is supposed to be a sign of protest against building a mosque.

Indeed. The above is quoted from page one of this thread, and I find it strange that I didn't find similar arguments repeated in the subsequent pages.

It would make just as much sense to wave a Dutch flag as a sign of protest FOR mosques. Unless, of course, one thinks there's something fundamentally un-Islamic about the Dutch flag and what it stands for, in which case waving it can only be interpreted as being opposed to religious freedom. Which is why people associate nationalist symbols in this context with right wing extremists.

Now, as for what happened back then, it is disingenuous to say that he was arrested for waving a flag. He was arrested for refusing to follow police instructions. If the extent of those police instructions was simply to lower his flag, then it was a stupid order on behalf of the police. But things are rarely that simple, and I find it hard to believe that him simply holding a flag was what caught their attention. Was he the only one with a flag? Surely he must have done something that other flag-carriers - who were left alone - weren't doing. If he was waving the flag in the policemen's faces, for example, then that would be disrespectful and a very bad idea.

[Kapitan]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

Indeed. The above is quoted from page one of this thread, and I find it strange that I didn't find similar arguments repeated in the subsequent pages.

It would make just as much sense to wave a Dutch flag as a sign of protest FOR mosques. Unless, of course, one thinks there's something fundamentally un-Islamic about the Dutch flag and what it stands for, in which case waving it can only be interpreted as being opposed to religious freedom. Which is why people associate nationalist symbols in this context with right wing extremists.

Now, as for what happened back then, it is disingenuous to say that he was arrested for waving a flag. He was arrested for refusing to follow police instructions. If the extent of those police instructions was simply to lower his flag, then it was a stupid order on behalf of the police. But things are rarely that simple, and I find it hard to believe that him simply holding a flag was what caught their attention. Was he the only one with a flag? Surely he must have done something that other flag-carriers - who were left alone - weren't doing. If he was waving the flag in the policemen's faces, for example, then that would be disrespectful and a very bad idea.

Should have raised a swastika that might draw some attention, it really does eff me off, a friend of mine has just said to me "i think hitler got it wrong gassing the jews he should have done it to the muslims" <<< not from me but there is a facebook group called lets draw mohammed day.

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Should have raised a swastika that might draw some attention, it really does eff me off, a friend of mine has just said to me "i think hitler got it wrong gassing the jews he should have done it to the muslims" <<< not from me but there is a facebook group called lets draw mohammed day.

"Draw Mohammed Day" is an interesting concept that I actually find worthwhile. I am no Islamophobe, and as an atheist I do not view Islam in any different light than Christianity. I actually have a certain fondness for both of them.

Some use Draw Mohammed Day as a way of mocking Islam, but this is petty and a waste of an excellent opportunity to make an actual statement of value, and that is a statement of tolerance. I very much agree with youtuber AronRa on this, as the protest is against violence, not the faith:



It's from 06:33 that the video is relevant to this particular topic, though the whole video is good.

I don't mind mosques being built, and I don't mind churches being built. If, in 100 years, the dominant religion in Europe is Islam, I really couldn't care less. But what I do care about is this: the newcomer must adapt to the establishment, not the other way around. If Islam wants to be accepted in Europe, Islam must conform to European culture. Christianity has a headstart in this, having grown up in Europe. The changes have been gradual enough that the Church has been able to cope.

For Islam it is going to be more difficult, but necessary all the same. Islam is no different than Christianity: Christianity has been (and someplaces still is) like Islam most places today. So has Judaism. If Christianity and Judaism, and pretty much all other religions of the world could outgrow that, there is no reason to assume that Islam can't do the same.

Originally Posted by DarkFish

...which is exactly my point.

But with a little bit of foresight he should have anticipated that once the police issued the order, they weren't going to back down from it. They would have to enforce it or lose face. Perhaps the grown-up thing would be for them to admit, "yeah, you're right, we were overreacting there", but especially when dealing with protesters, who is going to expect them to admit to mistakes? It might be construed as weakness, and their authority might be seen as impotent. This is why refusing to do what the police tells you to do can be very dangerous, even if they're in the wrong. I'm not saying you should just take it, but if you're going to oppose it, think it through.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

But with a little bit of foresight he should have anticipated that once the police issued the order, they weren't going to back down from it. They would have to enforce it or lose face. Perhaps the grown-up thing would be for them to admit, "yeah, you're right, we were overreacting there", but especially when dealing with protesters, who is going to expect them to admit to mistakes? It might be construed as weakness, and their authority might be seen as impotent. This is why refusing to do what the police tells you to do can be very dangerous, even if they're in the wrong. I'm not saying you should just take it, but if you're going to oppose it, think it through.

It wasn't the police at first. They only came into the picture later on

Anyway, I understand how the police didn't want to back down once they started, but fact is they knew what was going on before they even appeared.
I can see why they arrested my dad, my point is that he shouldn't have been ordered to lower the flag.
The direct reason for being arrested was indeed not following up the council official's instructions, but eventually the cause was clearly waving the flag.
If he hadn't waved the flag, he wouldn't have been arrested.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

But what I do care about is this: the newcomer must adapt to the establishment, not the other way around. If Islam wants to be accepted in Europe, Islam must conform to European culture.

I don't mind about Islam itself. I do mind about the fact that most muslims here do not want to confirm to European culture. If you move to another country, you must adapt to it.
If they come here, they can believe what they want. But they must adapt to our establishment, and not demand of us natives to adapt to theirs.

Which is why the plans for the mosque were met with a considerable amount of resistance from the neighbourhood. We don't want minarets, we don't want calls of prayers. And we certainly don't want all parking spots in the neighbourhood to be taken by mosque goers while there's not enough room now already.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

Now, as for what happened back then, it is disingenuous to say that he was arrested for waving a flag. He was arrested for refusing to follow police instructions. If the extent of those police instructions was simply to lower his flag, then it was a stupid order on behalf of the police.

...which is exactly my point.

But things are rarely that simple, and I find it hard to believe that him simply holding a flag was what caught their attention. Was he the only one with a flag? Surely he must have done something that other flag-carriers - who were left alone - weren't doing. If he was waving the flag in the policemen's faces, for example, then that would be disrespectful and a very bad idea.

He was the only one with a flag. He wasn't doing anything else (shouting, swearing, you name it, he wasn't doing it). Nor doing something with the flag, like waving it in someones face.

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Should have raised a swastika that might draw some attention, it really does eff me off, a friend of mine has just said to me "i think hitler got it wrong gassing the jews he should have done it to the muslims" <<< not from me but there is a facebook group called lets draw mohammed day.

huh?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

It would make just as much sense to wave a Dutch flag as a sign of protest FOR mosques. Unless, of course, one thinks there's something fundamentally un-Islamic about the Dutch flag and what it stands for, in which case waving it can only be interpreted as being opposed to religious freedom. Which is why people associate nationalist symbols in this context with right wing extremists.

Slightly off topic but what does the Dutch flag stand for? What is the symbolism? Like the US flag represents the 13 original colonies and the 50 current states, or the UK flag represents the union of England, Scotland and Ireland. But what does the Dutch flag symbolize?

Wikipedia didn't say anything on this so I hope some of our Dutch subsimmers could fill me in.