What's the Fascination with U-boats?

VonHesse · 01-24-10, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

...except for the multiply function

Did you by chance mean the "multiplayer" function?

(sorry Steve, couldn't help myself)

Nickolas · 01-24-10, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonHesse

Did you by chance mean the "multiplayer" function?

(sorry Steve, couldn't help myself)

no, uboat were the first calculators

FIREWALL · 01-24-10, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonHesse

Did you by chance mean the "multiplayer" function?

(sorry Steve, couldn't help myself)

HA !

Good one VonHesse

01-24-10, 02:34 PM

I suspect there are any number of reasons.

One is the the Battle of the Atlantic played out in front of a much wider audiance than did the US submarine offensive against Japan. The theatre has relevance to all North Americans as well as Europeans and even into South America. In the Pacific it was essentially an America Only campaign that occured out of sight and far away. Even those with an interest in the IJN might prefer to forget it since they bungled their ASW so badly.

Also the historiography of the U-Boat war is far more extensive than the Pacific submarine war again because far more countries were involved. The U-Boat arm was one of the earliest to be de-nazified in print with the translation into English of Harald Busch's U-Boats at War in the mid 1950's. At this time many aspects of the USN's war were still classified (and remained so until the 1970's) so the story of the U-Boats gained currancy earlier and has been around for longer. A good comparison is the portrayal of the enemy in the Hollywood movies "Run Silent Run Deep" vs "The Enemy Below" both produced in the same era.

Das Boot the movie of course greatly personified the U-Boats as well and regularly scores high on lists of popular war movies rather than playing to a narrow submarine movie fan base.

New books dealing with U-Boats come out with a far greater frequency than the commerce war in the Pacific and internationally "The Battle of the Atlantic" probably sounds a more appealing topic than "The United States Submarine War against Japan".

The mythology of the U-Boat has also taken on a life of its own and a couple of interesting books dealing with this very topic are:

Count Not the Dead by Michael Hadley and Neither Sharks nor Wolves by Timothy Mulligan.

Good Hunting

TDK1044 · 01-24-10, 02:40 PM

For me it's simple....the U Boat cat and mouse war in the Atlantic offers much more drama and entertainment as a player than Fleet Boats in the Pacific.

Brag · 01-24-10, 03:16 PM

Though important, US subs played a limited role in the Pacific Theater. Without the submarines participating, the results of this campaign would have still ended the same.

In the Atlantic, U-boats were the main protagonists on the German side and for a little while (1941-1942), threatened to nullify British naval supremacy.

In SH-3, the frustration of a U-boat commander is duplicated as after expending one's torpedoes one watches the convoy continue toward their destination.

Never mind the hammering from destroyers.

The U-boat crews fought a heroic contest and got close to changing history.

Harry708 · 01-24-10, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Though important, US subs played a limited role in the Pacific Theater. Without the submarines participating, the results of this campaign would have still ended the same.

I don't know about that, the U.S. Submarine Force only made up 2% of the total combatants in the Pacific and sunk over 60% of Japans shipping which shortened the war by years. I would think it would be more true for the Atlanic war the Germans could not sink as many ships as were being produced and was fighting a loosing battle.

Platapus · 01-24-10, 03:41 PM

Losing side/battle

Not loosing side/battle

Loosing means to detach.

Losing means failing to win.

capthelm · 01-24-10, 03:59 PM

for me it was the bravery these men had in them to go to combat in there
iron coffins.

i have been on 2 museum pieces here in my area where i live.

american ww2 boat uss ling ,and later dated cold war boat uss growler

am 6 foot 5, i was having a hard time venturing through the boats.

i said no way i could do this, fight and live on it.

also the upmost fear of being depth charged imagine the noise fear sweat
cold sea water pouring in.

no escape if the boat did not surface.

...........

Thomen · 01-24-10, 04:14 PM

Well, for me personaly it is a matter of family history.
My grandfather served during the war on a u-boat. However, even though I knew all these years that he served on one, my interest was really awakened after he died. At his funeral service I heard for the first time that his boat almost got sunk by a Liberator bomber, and that ulitmately triggered my interest.

AVGWarhawk · 01-27-10, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brag

Though important, US subs played a limited role in the Pacific Theater. Without the submarines participating, the results of this campaign would have still ended the same.

In the Atlantic, U-boats were the main protagonists on the German side and for a little while (1941-1942), threatened to nullify British naval supremacy.

In SH-3, the frustration of a U-boat commander is duplicated as after expending one's torpedoes one watches the convoy continue toward their destination.

Never mind the hammering from destroyers.

The U-boat crews fought a heroic contest and got close to changing history.

Where did you come up with that hub-bub. bub?

Ducimus · 01-27-10, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brag

Though important, US subs played a limited role in the Pacific Theater. Without the submarines participating, the results of this campaign would have still ended the same.

In the Atlantic, U-boats were the main protagonists on the German side and for a little while (1941-1942), threatened to nullify British naval supremacy.

In SH-3, the frustration of a U-boat commander is duplicated as after expending one's torpedoes one watches the convoy continue toward their destination.

Never mind the hammering from destroyers.

The U-boat crews fought a heroic contest and got close to changing history.

Ok, I had already spoke my piece and was going to let it all go, but since this was just pointed out....

I'll just state a few facts missing here, and leave my opinions to my other post:

Fact 1:
The US submarine force, all volunteers, comprised of less then 2% of US naval personnel deployed in the pacific. Some sources cite, they were 1.6% of all US naval personal in the Pacific

Fact 2:
Those 1.6%, did this:

Fact 3:
1 in 5 US Submariners lost their lives in the line of duty.

Fact 4:
The Submarine campaign in the pacific did alter the outcome of a few battles, (See USS harders 5th war patrol for the most famous example) and did indeed strangle the life line of Japan.

It's ok to have a theater preference, but really man, educate yourself.

psykopatsak · 01-27-10, 06:15 PM

the thing that makes SH4 (im keeping to the PTO, not the game interface and such now) so extremly boring is that first you have to travel across a quarter of the globe jus to get close to enemy shipping.

then at first you wont kill anything as your torpedoes suck, and then just leg it home, provided you werent attacked by a destroyer, in wich case you must dodge it first, and hope you dont accidentally reach crush depth while crash diving. the depth charges are so off that its not really an issue.

late war you torpedo some random ships, and then dodge the occational destroyer, using the excact same boat to sink the excact same ships with now functioning torpedoes, and by now there are scarcly any destroyers left. then on your way home again! just a few more months!

thruster · 01-27-10, 06:34 PM

no disrespect to WW2 USN submarine service, but:
whilst each service developed their boats to suit their area of ops, the uboats [esp the type 7 series] were the quintessential 'submarine' of the era. i suggest that the reason the US boats were allowed to do so well was due to the IJN ASW ineptitude and inefficiency, and the sheer size of the AO. a US boat makes a german Type 9 look like a stealth fighter, a US boat wouldnt survive its first contact in the atlantic even in 1940.

whilst the US had a field day as the war progressed [biggest challenge actually finding targets], the uboats fought a totally aggressive adversary that became far more effective as the war progressed. personally, im saddened by the loss of all submariners, that said, the KM lost >3/4 of their uboat personnel, it became a gamble just to clear the bay of biscay and reach their AO. despite that they remained loyal to their mission to the very end.

from a gaming perspective and the challenge in gameplay, i cannot see any point in modelling the PTO at the expense of perfecting the ATO, or even the Med.

Task Force · 01-27-10, 06:49 PM

I also feel its time for a U boat sim on a up dated engine... which SH4 has...

even tho I think sh3 has better UI & its wave look more ocean like, not like crumpled up tin foil...

01-24-10, 03:16 PM	#6
Brag Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Docked on a Russian pond Posts: 7,072 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Though important, US subs played a limited role in the Pacific Theater. Without the submarines participating, the results of this campaign would have still ended the same. In the Atlantic, U-boats were the main protagonists on the German side and for a little while (1941-1942), threatened to nullify British naval supremacy. In SH-3, the frustration of a U-boat commander is duplicated as after expending one's torpedoes one watches the convoy continue toward their destination. Never mind the hammering from destroyers. The U-boat crews fought a heroic contest and got close to changing history. __________________ Espionage, adventure, suspense, are just a click away Click here to look inside Brag's book: Amazon.com: Kingmaker: Alexey Braguine: Books Order Kingmaker here: http://www.subsim.com/store.html For Tactics visit:http://www.freewebs.com/kielman/

01-24-10, 03:41 PM	#8
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,382 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	Losing side/battle Not loosing side/battle Loosing means to detach. Losing means failing to win. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

01-24-10, 03:59 PM	#9
capthelm Captain Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 522 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	for me it was the bravery these men had in them to go to combat in there iron coffins. i have been on 2 museum pieces here in my area where i live. american ww2 boat uss ling ,and later dated cold war boat uss growler am 6 foot 5, i was having a hard time venturing through the boats. i said no way i could do this, fight and live on it. also the upmost fear of being depth charged imagine the noise fear sweat cold sea water pouring in. no escape if the boat did not surface. ........... __________________ "One torpedo ... one ship" my SH5 lighting mod http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkM5k8SXpWo my SH5 audio mod http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIN5RHeL8B8

01-27-10, 06:49 PM	#15
Task Force Rear Admiral Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SPACE!!!! Posts: 10,142 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I also feel its time for a U boat sim on a up dated engine... which SH4 has... even tho I think sh3 has better UI & its wave look more ocean like, not like crumpled up tin foil... __________________ Task Force industries "Taking control of the world, one mind at a time"

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01-24-10, 02:34 PM	#4
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I suspect there are any number of reasons. One is the the Battle of the Atlantic played out in front of a much wider audiance than did the US submarine offensive against Japan. The theatre has relevance to all North Americans as well as Europeans and even into South America. In the Pacific it was essentially an America Only campaign that occured out of sight and far away. Even those with an interest in the IJN might prefer to forget it since they bungled their ASW so badly. Also the historiography of the U-Boat war is far more extensive than the Pacific submarine war again because far more countries were involved. The U-Boat arm was one of the earliest to be de-nazified in print with the translation into English of Harald Busch's U-Boats at War in the mid 1950's. At this time many aspects of the USN's war were still classified (and remained so until the 1970's) so the story of the U-Boats gained currancy earlier and has been around for longer. A good comparison is the portrayal of the enemy in the Hollywood movies "Run Silent Run Deep" vs "The Enemy Below" both produced in the same era. Das Boot the movie of course greatly personified the U-Boats as well and regularly scores high on lists of popular war movies rather than playing to a narrow submarine movie fan base. New books dealing with U-Boats come out with a far greater frequency than the commerce war in the Pacific and internationally "The Battle of the Atlantic" probably sounds a more appealing topic than "The United States Submarine War against Japan". The mythology of the U-Boat has also taken on a life of its own and a couple of interesting books dealing with this very topic are: Count Not the Dead by Michael Hadley and Neither Sharks nor Wolves by Timothy Mulligan. Good Hunting

01-24-10, 02:40 PM	#5
TDK1044 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 2,674 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	For me it's simple....the U Boat cat and mouse war in the Atlantic offers much more drama and entertainment as a player than Fleet Boats in the Pacific.

01-24-10, 04:14 PM	#10
Thomen Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: West Virginia Posts: 1,207 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Well, for me personaly it is a matter of family history. My grandfather served during the war on a u-boat. However, even though I knew all these years that he served on one, my interest was really awakened after he died. At his funeral service I heard for the first time that his boat almost got sunk by a Liberator bomber, and that ulitmately triggered my interest.

01-27-10, 06:15 PM	#13
psykopatsak Medic Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Grid AO27 Posts: 161 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	the thing that makes SH4 (im keeping to the PTO, not the game interface and such now) so extremly boring is that first you have to travel across a quarter of the globe jus to get close to enemy shipping. then at first you wont kill anything as your torpedoes suck, and then just leg it home, provided you werent attacked by a destroyer, in wich case you must dodge it first, and hope you dont accidentally reach crush depth while crash diving. the depth charges are so off that its not really an issue. late war you torpedo some random ships, and then dodge the occational destroyer, using the excact same boat to sink the excact same ships with now functioning torpedoes, and by now there are scarcly any destroyers left. then on your way home again! just a few more months!

01-27-10, 06:34 PM	#14
thruster Electrician's Mate Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 139 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	no disrespect to WW2 USN submarine service, but: whilst each service developed their boats to suit their area of ops, the uboats [esp the type 7 series] were the quintessential 'submarine' of the era. i suggest that the reason the US boats were allowed to do so well was due to the IJN ASW ineptitude and inefficiency, and the sheer size of the AO. a US boat makes a german Type 9 look like a stealth fighter, a US boat wouldnt survive its first contact in the atlantic even in 1940. whilst the US had a field day as the war progressed [biggest challenge actually finding targets], the uboats fought a totally aggressive adversary that became far more effective as the war progressed. personally, im saddened by the loss of all submariners, that said, the KM lost >3/4 of their uboat personnel, it became a gamble just to clear the bay of biscay and reach their AO. despite that they remained loyal to their mission to the very end. from a gaming perspective and the challenge in gameplay, i cannot see any point in modelling the PTO at the expense of perfecting the ATO, or even the Med.