Deceased Crew Members / How will crew deaths be simulated? (threads merged)

[GoldenRivet]

It did happen though however rare.

found this one:

http://www.uboat.net/men/muetzelburg.htm

There was also the commander who killed himself during patrol aboard U-505.

But in my brief research i had trouble finding a large number of Kaleuns who died at sea without the loss of the boat.

as an option in SH5... it would be something that would be a one in a million thing to have happen... but it might serve to make players more cautious in surfacing next to a DD to duke it out with guns.

[gordonmull]

Unlucky. Not even in combat.

I agree - in game it would certainly make you think twice after it happened once!

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

But in my brief research i had trouble finding a large number of Kaleuns who died at sea without the loss of the boat.

Commander casualties without the boat being lost:

• Radke of U-657 was killed during training
• Rasch of U-106 was wounded in '42
• Muetzelburg was killed as you mentioned
• Cremer of U-333 was wounded in '42
• Neubert of U-167 was wounded in '43
• Saar of U-957 was killed
• Reeder of U-214 was wounded in '43
• Zetzsche of U-591 was wounded in '43
• Lauzemis of U-68 was wounded in '43
• Hartmann of U-441 was wounded in '43 (along with every other officer)
• Markworth of U-66 was wounded in '43
• Kluth of U-377 was wounded in '43
• Techand of U-731 was wounded in '43
• Krueger of U-631 broke his hand in '43
• Zschech of U-505 killed himself
• Heinrich of U-960 was wounded in '44
• Leu of U-921 was killed doing the same thing as Howard Gilmore on the U.S. side....saved his boat by getting everyone down the hatch but was too wounded to make it down himself and so told them to "take her down" without him.
• von Roithberg of U-989 was wounded in '44
• Heinrich of U-299 was wounded in '44
• Riekeberg of U-637 killed himself after being wounded in '45
• Bungards of U-3012 was wounded and later died during training
• Wachter of U-2503 was killed in '45

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Commander casualties without the boat being lost:

• Radke of U-657 was killed during training
• Rasch of U-106 was wounded in '42
• Muetzelburg was killed as you mentioned
• Cremer of U-333 was wounded in '42
• Neubert of U-167 was wounded in '43
• Saar of U-957 was killed
• Reeder of U-214 was wounded in '43
• Zetzsche of U-591 was wounded in '43
• Lauzemis of U-68 was wounded in '43
• Hartmann of U-441 was wounded in '43 (along with every other officer)
• Markworth of U-66 was wounded in '43
• Kluth of U-377 was wounded in '43
• Techand of U-731 was wounded in '43
• Krueger of U-631 broke his hand in '43
• Zschech of U-505 killed himself
• Heinrich of U-960 was wounded in '44
• Leu of U-921 was killed doing the same thing as Howard Gilmore on the U.S. side....saved his boat by getting everyone down the hatch but was too wounded to make it down himself and so told them to "take her down" without him.
• von Roithberg of U-989 was wounded in '44
• Heinrich of U-299 was wounded in '44
• Riekeberg of U-637 killed himself after being wounded in '45
• Bungards of U-3012 was wounded and later died during training
• Wachter of U-2503 was killed in '45

This list is a bit misleading... as it includes suicides, deaths by accidents some of which occurred while ashore or during training activities and injuries while at sea.

The criteria as I understand it to be is:

Commander of the boat Died or was killed at sea on a combat mission leaving the rest of the crew to return to base on their own (with an acting commander)

That list should look more like this IMHO

• Muetzelburg was killed as you mentioned
• Saar of U-957 was killed
• Zschech of U-505 killed himself
• Leu of U-921 was killed doing the same thing as Howard Gilmore on the U.S. side....saved his boat by getting everyone down the hatch but was too wounded to make it down himself and so told them to "take her down" without him.
• Riekeberg of U-637 killed himself after being wounded in '45
• Wachter of U-2503 was killed in '45

[mookiemookie]

I specifically left off accidents while ashore and only a couple of these cases were during training. The vast majority were injuries or deaths suffered on war patrol.

[sourisnoir]

In SH3 I spend my time happily and completely immersed in the act and art of destroying enemy shipping and then trying to get away alive. It was only when the boat was sinking that I wished that I'd paid more attention to damage control specialist Hans.

I never really gave this situation much thought until this thread - but I think that as the SH series moves toward FPS graphics and crew representation it will become increasing impossible to keep them out of MY experience - whether I like it or not.

Years ago I did play another classic sim in which the crew got alot of my attention and I did feel somewhat attached to them. When they got hurt or killed it had an immediate impact on the mission. I think that a look-back at the way that sim handled injury and death is interesting. Here's a montage I found on youtube:

(Ignore the first 30 seconds or so)

The 'medic' graphical interface and the written dialogue is interesting as well.

Stallwort

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I specifically left off accidents while ashore and only a couple of these cases were during training. The vast majority were injuries or deaths suffered on war patrol.

I realized this after re-reading more of the info on U-boat.net

however, some of those injuries seemed rather minor... in other words, a few of those injuries would not have prevented the Kaleun from commanding the boat.

the question which originated this facet of the discussion more or less was... can the commander be killed? or injured so severely that you will no longer be able to command the boat

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

however, some of those injuries seemed rather minor... in other words, a few of those injuries would not have prevented the Kaleun from commanding the boat.

Sure. I was just being nitpicky.

[Lord Justice]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

however, some of those injuries seemed rather minor... in other words, a few of those injuries would not have prevented the Kaleun from commanding the boat.

the question which originated this facet of the discussion more or less was... can the commander be killed? or injured so severely that you will no longer be able to command the boat

10 days into patrol, "Oh no, came all this way, to get shot by a bullet from berlin, ZEISLER shoot the damn aircrafts"!!

[Sniper297]

MookieMookie pretty much covered my take on this;

"Because it's getting bogged down in minutiae that doesn't serve any real purpose"

I play a bunch of different simulators, including flight sims and train sims, and the micro crew management I had seen previously in one of the attack helicopter sims - too tedious to be any fun. I forget whether it was SH2 or SH3, but in one of them I thought the whole thing was ludicrous - if I'm supposed to be the captain, I expect my officers and chiefs to set some kind of watchbill instead of me personally having to tell each man when he's supposed to go to sleep.

The most recent train simulator I'm playing they also got bogged down in minutiae that doesn't serve any real purpose - huge focus on the doors of passenger cars opening and animated people walking on and off the train when stopped at a station, and they spent so much development time on that they left out assorted physics and freight train operations.

To me this is the same thing, I don't care about the gore one way or the other but for realism it's about as necessary as simulating picayune details like crewmen brushing their teeth or representing all the scraping and repainting of the boat.

[PL_Andrev]

Originally Posted by Sniper297

To me this is the same thing, I don't care about the gore one way or the other but for realism it's about as necessary as simulating picayune details like crewmen brushing their teeth or representing all the scraping and repainting of the boat.

Except that in SH you actually have 4 types of actions:
- Mission briefing
- Test ship (tightness, damage in the draft)
- Contact with the enemy (attack or escape)
- Special mission objective (recon, supplies, spies)

Everything else is "time compression x8192 - there is no place for swimming in the ocean, personal hygiene, consumption and cleaning the deck.

But possibility of injury / death of the captain (player) is part of the attack the enemy or your - this detail should be implemented.

This is senseless when you attack a merchant with high number of AA guns. Merchant's crew kill all your crew on the deck but the captain (you) stands at the gun, and shots to the ship again and again...

[JScones]

If I'm stupid enough to stand on the bridge and watch approaching aeroplanes then I deserve to "die" in much the same fashion that my watch crew does.

[karamazovnew]

True... Although I propose we have enough health to survive a few rounds. Maybe even a direct hit from a DD. I also think that crew deaths should be better implemented on our target ships. Heroic allies manning the guns amidst a wall of flame and direct deck gun and aa gun fire is just stupid.

[Apocal]

Originally Posted by Sniper297

I forget whether it was SH2 or SH3, but in one of them I thought the whole thing was ludicrous - if I'm supposed to be the captain, I expect my officers and chiefs to set some kind of watchbill instead of me personally having to tell each man when he's supposed to go to sleep.

Fixed in SH4. Minor issues with how damage and crew are handled when topside areas are 'hit' while submerged, but it's a fairly realistic depiction of Condition III manning.

The only real issue I have with SH4's crew management is that it's possible and desirable to have a boat full of nothing but chiefs and officers. But that's pretty minor, more or less eye candy, it just happens to bother me personally.

[Lord Justice]

Originally Posted by JScones

If I'm stupid enough to stand on the bridge and watch approaching aeroplanes then I deserve to "die" in much the same fashion that my watch crew does.

Sir JScones, if i may be so blunt to ask for redress of this rhetorical statement? as iam indeed somewhat befuddled. Thank you.