In RL any chance for a Kilo skipper to survive after attacking a Chinese task force?

[Castout]

Just played a scenario titled killer Kilo with DWX mod installed.

Playing as an Indian Kilo skipper patrolling near Andaman island. The Chinese task force escorting a few landing crafts were the targets.

In the end I exhausted all my torpedoes
and sank
A Chinese oiler which was part of the task force
A Luda frigate
A Yuting class landing craft
Damaged a Jiangwei Frigate
Damaged a Chinese supply ship

But my egress out of the threat zone was like escaping the lion's den. Once I wreaked havoc among the Chinese ships from 3nmi distance the remaining ships converged on me! A Chinese Kilo which was part of the escort but took a position quite far away from the main task force even converged on me.
I was helpless I dodged about 4 torpedoes before the final one got me.

All I can say is that it was a hell of a fight and evasion.

I'm wondering in RL how much a chance a Kilo skipper would have to survive a Chinese task force counterattack. The Chinese had a Sovremenny DDG, 2 LUDA I, 1 to 2 Jiangwei and a Kilo. I just think every time a Kilo exposed itself after attacking or launching its torpedoes it became very vulnerable to enemy counter attack. It's almost like the Kilo were a disposable sub that you trade after inflicting as much damage to enemy task force.
Against one or two enemy ships the Kilo could probably defend itself but 3 or more then the odds are starting to go against it.

My compliment to the DWX modders as I watched numerous times the smart actions of the enemy ships(only showed truth on after attacking and turned it off whenever a torpedo was coming, I just couldn't resist to see the all action) as they hunted me down much like smoking a rat out of the its hole nest. They were sure very persistent. I was thinking please give me a break all the time....lol

[Dr.Sid]

Generally .. if submarine's (any submarine) position is known, it is dead.
Avoiding detection with Kilo's short ranged torpedoes is hard. I guess it would not work. Maybe send some torpedoes to the 'general escort direction', they should run for a while, at least, allowing you to slowly change position.
But you must realize Kilo is 'moving minefield' .. Kilo can't really run away. And minefields are not supposed to survive.

[Castout]

Thanks Dr Sid but I wasn't revealed but the launched torpedoes acted as a bearing betrayer to my position. The enemy just converged on the bearing in which they detected torpedoes were launched. And I really expended all my torpedoes. Just left with a pair of SSN15 ASW rocket borne torpedoes.

One curious thing I would like to ask is for the Kilo isn't approaching within 3 nmi of pinging enemy escort ships a sure way to be dead in RL?

I would imagine the active sonar to have started detecting something more than 3nmi away.

Is my assumption correct that active pinging would reveal a submerged submarine more than 3nmi away generally speaking?

[Dr.Sid]

In sonar everything depends on conditions. 3nm can be perfectly realistic under some conditions. But yeah, I too think it is quite low range.

Anyway, launching all torpedoes, you must expect someone to notice. With deep water and long range torpedoes, you can launch them from below the layer, or navigate them around the target. Also you can launch them much further away. In such case, torpedo will be detected at different location then you are. But with Kilo, all this is difficult. This is DW world.

IRL, I actually have no idea how well torpedoes can be detected, but I think it should be more or less like in DW. Torpedoes are loud.

Once I killed whole carrier group with Kilo, and I almost didn't fire a shot. I got inside the group, not that I wanted, but Kilo is so slow I could not evade .. then I got detected .. and then all escorts started to fire torpedoes at me .. but all torpedoes happily went for the 'bigger fish'. Two escorts also crashed into each other. I slowly moved away, and then finished the survivors.
Still it was bad AI, and it might not work with today's patch/mod level. It would not work for sure IRL.

[Castout]

Then after thinking of all these I can say for sure a Kilo is not so much a deterrent when facing a well equipped task force.

In fact even a very quiet non nuclear sub especially without long range heavy weight torpedoes is compromised a second after it launched its weapons and without the means to go fast in long ranges it's pretty much a game of how much longer it would still survive and not a question of if.

That is to say generally speaking in terms of survivability it's better to be in a nuclear sub than a non nuclear sub after all.
But of course when dealing with single unsuspecting warship, any sub would prove deadly.

[Dr.Sid]

It is detterent .. you wiped the task force right ? Task force for small sub is good trade-off. Also IRL the sub could get some support. It could cause panic and some damage, the aircraft could attack. Kilo can afford some vulnerability, since it works in home waters.

[mikka]

Enemy losses:
Yuting class landing ship: 130 crew, 250 troops
Luda class destroyer: 280 crew
Oiler: 400 crew?

Friendly losses:
Kilo: 50 crew

I think your widow is getting a fat medal.

[goldorak]

Well if we go by real life events, the British taskforce during the falklands war had an awefull time trying to acquire and sink a pesky argentine diesel eletric submarine (that if it weren't for defective torpedo or defective settings would have damaged or sunk one of the british carriers).
The British taskforce went on full ASW and dropped tens of torpedoes and never could get a fix on the sub. So I wouldn't really dismiss the lethality and survivability of a diesel sub against surface ships. And this was in the early eighties. Consider what a modern AIP diesel eletric sub can do, and you understand why the Virgina nuclear subs were developped.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by mikka

Oiler: 400 crew?

More like <90. Tankers and merchant ships have much lower crew requirments than a warship of simailer tonnage. Basic reason is that tonnage used by cargo dosn't require looking after like tonnage taken up by weapons.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

It is detterent .. you wiped the task force right ? Task force for small sub is good trade-off. Also IRL the sub could get some support. It could cause panic and some damage, the aircraft could attack. Kilo can afford some vulnerability, since it works in home waters.

Originally Posted by mikka

Enemy losses:
Yuting class landing ship: 130 crew, 250 troops
Luda class destroyer: 280 crew
Oiler: 400 crew?

Friendly losses:
Kilo: 50 crew

I think your widow is getting a fat medal.

Well but most definitely the Kilo would not survive to celebrate its kill ...
I even doubt that in RL the Kilo could approach within 3nmi of the nearest active pinging escort without the escort starting to pick it up and closed in to investigate. So in RL it may not be possible at all to damage any ships as the Kilo weapons are not really that long reaching and the fact that there's no towed torpedo decoy implemented in DWX. But if the Kilo were equipped with improved sonar processing & tracking and at least the ability to carry heavy weight long range torpedoes in all its tubes that could really enhance the Kilo lethality and survivability. As for the current condition in DWX the Kilo is at most as lethal as a suicide bomber against a suspecting task force.

[Pillar]

What if he had made it into some quite shallow waters?

[Castout]

Shallow water would even further restrict the Kilo.

It may be passively more difficult to detect it in shallow waters but I think active sonar would not have any difficulty detecting a Kilo in shallow water

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Castout

Shallow water would even further restrict the Kilo.

It may be passively more difficult to detect it in shallow waters but I think active sonar would not have any difficulty detecting a Kilo in shallow water

Those are pretty big assumptions and if we go by real life reports (gotland sub sneaking up to an american carrier during friendly exercises) just demonstrate who wrong you are on this issue. The fact is diesel subs are pretty damn hard to detect, shallow or no shallow zone when using batteries. Wishing the Kilo were *S H I T* doesn't make it so in real life.

[OneShot]

The survivability of the Kilo depends on the scenario and the use of the sub. If it tries to interdict a convoy in the deep sea it will have some serious trouble (speed wise a conventional sub just isnt up to par) and if it gets close it will be detected if it has to travel fast, not to mention that it cant do that for long.

However if the Kilo could lie in wait and conduct a successful attack against one or more HVUs and then slink away in a noisy enviroment with hopefully lots of other contacts to distract the converging ASW units then it might survive.

As I said initially, it all depends on the enviroment/circumstances and that the Kilo is used to its strengths. Remember, its not a nuke and thus has to content with limited speed and range (among other things).

[Pillar]

Originally Posted by Castout

Shallow water would even further restrict the Kilo.

It may be passively more difficult to detect it in shallow waters but I think active sonar would not have any difficulty detecting a Kilo in shallow water

Now you have me very curious, I always believed that in shallow waters such as around coastal areas that active sonar would not function as well as in deeper water. (Because of the shallow bottom giving returns and being difficult to distinguish the Kilo from the bottom - I am granting the Kilo doesn't simply have a metal exposed hull, but has the anechoic tiling.)

This is incorrect?