Women on Subs? NEAL!

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS)

Adm. Mullen is trying to secure a bigger piece of the pie, or he has some pissy Congresswoman breathing down his neck.

Isn't that harassment? I think at some point all of this PCness in our military is going to catch up with us in a bad way.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

In this era of 'correctness' I am positive that they will pass this and you will have a dozen or more ladies on board a number of submarines.

It will last till half of them end up pregnant. They will want on board till they find that sub life is not the romantic/matcho thing they thought it was.

I can think of a DOZEN out of the way places a couple could make noise and never be heard. Even with a watchstander walking within 5 feet of you. Thus you have to worry about that sudden Oooops AFTER you have already left port.

Also, a functioning nuclear reactor and a female reproductive system do NOT work well together. Want to know the IMMEDIATE reaction to a pregnant female on board with a critical reactor? Get her off the boat NOW. Oh, and lets not forget about all those carcinogens floating around that are KNOWN to cause birth defects.

With qualified bubbleheads being a scarse commodity, you have to pull the men back off of shore duty to replace the now inelegible for sea duty ladies. Doing that will DESTROY moral. Just think, you know you FINALLY get that shore duty to have wanted for 5 years and 6 months later you have to go back because someone forgot her diaphram. Oh yeah, and the detailer says he will fix it right after this depoyment you are now going on...After all, she only has a year of shore duty after the birth before she has to return to the boat. Depending on when she left, that can be almost 2 YEARS off the boat.

When she returns, she is going to have to re-qual all over again. Not bad on a 6 year enlistment (presuming it was that long in the first place). Yep, the USN is going to gets its money worth. Two years training just to get them to the boat.... and then.. 4 years MAX unless they get pregnant. Sure, you can use them elsewhere, but the training they get is rather SPECIFIC to submarines. If you decide to use them elsewhere, you now have to retrain them AGAIN.

Case in point here: While I was in, Desert Storm I was just starting. They decided to deploy the USS L.Y. Spear (AS-36) to the combat area for support services. Over one THIRD of her crew were ladies. When then got the depoyment orders damn if over HALF of the female crew suddenly got with child. I tell you, if you had a single lady friend on the tender you had to look out. They were LOOKING for.. well.. you know, and they were NOT shy about it. They had to GUT the crews of the 2 other sub tenders in Norfolk to get them underway. Oh yeah, the moral was great with the male sailors. I remember it will to this day. We did not get decent work out of the tender shops for about 6 months.

I support the IDEA, but the realities of the situation preclude any chance of this coming out good for the USN.

Before you get me wrong. I am VERY pro-intergration of the genders. However, there are situations where it just does not work. This is one of them. Now, if they want to FORCE a temporary sterilization for them upon the commitment to the submarine force, I can endorse it 1000%. It removes the ONE thing that they can use to get off the boat that we could not use. We could not use it to get off, they should not either. After all, it IS a volenteer force. They want to be equal, then make them equal.

One boat, One crew, One shaft, One screw -- Fast attack forever!

[nikimcbee]

Somewhere out there....



Sonar operator: "Comrade Kapitan, sonar contact bearing 067."
Kapitan: " Can you identify it?"
Sonar operator grimaces for a few seconds: "No sir, whales maybe?"
Kapitan takes the earphone for a few moments and listens...
[oh yeah, oh yeah, faster, faster FASTER, cowabungaaaaa!] silence...
Kapitan: "It's not a whale"

[Elder-Pirate]

^^

Originally Posted by Bubblehead Nuke

Stuff

The pill, Morning after pill, Condoms, so many contraceptives these days, people should use them.

Also I don't see an issue with letting lasses on subs, every lass I've met is as capable as me or more so in any aspect.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS)

Oh yes because if Canada does it, it must be a good idea! I am definitely one of the "keep them off subs" crowd. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Ah, ever the anti-progress line...

This whole thing stinks of politics.

Wouldn't another way of putting it is that the United States Navy may never know what it is missing if it weren't for politics? (To be fair, it might just not work out but w/o trying...)

It is really a good time to try such things out for America, whose power is supreme currently.

[I'm goin' down]

Look at it this way (see below). Based upon the fact that they bring valuable ass ets on board, I vote an immediate yes.

[Aramike]

Ah, ever the anti-progress line...

I don't see how that is anti-progress. Sure, women would probably make submariners equal to men. I wouldn't say superior, but I'll say equal.

That being said, what then is the point? Todays subs are designed without regard to gender, and such an approach has served us extraordinarily well over the years. Submarines are, by nature, not a private place to live and work. Now with the inclusion of mixed-gender crews, some manner of privacy will have to be obtained.

To me that seems like a downgrade. It is certainly not progress.

Our fighting forces don't exist to give people jobs or opportunities. Sure, opportunity naturally comes with the territory, but that's not the point. The purpose is the mission, and that supercedes any idea of equal-opportunity.

What's next? Making sure that boats have handicap access?

Frankly, I'd find it interesting to have an all-woman crewed boat, however.

I dunno if I was in the armed services I'd have no problem changing clothes or showering in vicinity of a woman who isn't my girlfriend, could keep my thoughts clean too.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Aramike

I don't see how that is anti-progress. Sure, women would probably make submariners equal to men. I wouldn't say superior, but I'll say equal.

In fact, I'll even go so far as to say that they'll average inferior in one index, Strength. Ever the big one. Most of the differences between male and female (such as the supposed greater spatial ability of men vs the greater communicative average of women) is in the fuzz range insofar as it exists, but the strength average thing is undeniable...

That being said, what then is the point? Todays subs are designed without regard to gender, and such an approach has served us extraordinarily well over the years. Submarines are, by nature, not a private place to live and work. Now with the inclusion of mixed-gender crews, some manner of privacy will have to be obtained.

To me that seems like a downgrade. It is certainly not progress.

A hundred years (or was it 200?) ago, a hammock was considered adequate accomodation. Now, people actually demand beds, locker space, air conditioning ... etc, as in comfort. They also demand shore time, family time ... etc. Is that a "downgrade"?

Frankly, after men get over their macho "We are tough" thing, they'll probably figure that maybe the improvement in privacy is no bad thing for themselves too.

Our fighting forces don't exist to give people jobs or opportunities. Sure, opportunity naturally comes with the territory, but that's not the point. The purpose is the mission, and that supercedes any idea of equal-opportunity.

What's next? Making sure that boats have handicap access?

If handicapped people are roughly 50% of the population, and you are not exactly overmanned, and you want the most suitable in the population and the handicaps aren't too directly relevant to the job ... well, one might want to consider it...

Frankly, I'd find it interesting to have an all-woman crewed boat, however.

Well, if you ever want that see that interest happen, there will have to be a transition period where women work with men. Otherwise, inexperience in a role that men have locked them out of for decades will kill the program before anyone can see whether it'll work.

[nikimcbee]

Well, if they're going to accomadate women, then they should accomadate for me, and let diabetics in the military!

[nikimcbee]

double post. I think everybody at subsim hit "post" at the same time and it caused chaos.

[Blood_splat]

They'll just have to launch new born babies from the underwater maternity ward's torpedo tubes.

[Aramike]

A hundred years (or was it 200?) ago, a hammock was considered adequate accomodation. Now, people actually demand beds, locker space, air conditioning ... etc, as in comfort. They also demand shore time, family time ... etc. Is that a "downgrade"?

There's a difference between designing a boat to consider creature comforts when the technology is demanding new designs altogether and just doing it because you want to add such amenities.

Frankly, after men get over their macho "We are tough" thing, they'll probably figure that maybe the improvement in privacy is no bad thing for themselves too.

But they already have the same level of privacy they would have with an integrated force, except now they have more space.

By "privacy" in this context I meant "gender isolation", or privacy for the gender as a hole.

If handicapped people are roughly 50% of the population, and you are not exactly overmanned, and you want the most suitable in the population and the handicaps aren't too directly relevant to the job ... well, one might want to consider it...

That's true, except it would make more sense to explore other alternatives first.

Well, if you ever want that see that interest happen, there will have to be a transition period where women work with men. Otherwise, inexperience in a role that men have locked them out of for decades will kill the program before anyone can see whether it'll work.

Also true. I just thought it was interesting.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by Aramike

That's true, except it would make more sense to explore other alternatives first.

What other alternatives?
Just curious, my stand on this issue is meh, not much would really change if women were on subs.