The proposed health care bill thread (merged)

[TDK1044]

This is all part of a cleverly constructed plan by the Democrats to create a Government dependent population. Once people know that they can always look to Government to assist them with just about everything, then it will be nearly impossible for the Republicans to get elected in the future.

Obama is really trying to create an 'assisted living' environment for the majority of our citizens. Look at Government ownership in the Banking industry and the Motor industry and you start to see where they are going.

If this is what most people in the US want then so be it, but don't then stand there with your flag on July 4th and proclaim how grateful you are to be free, because you're giving up that precious freedom and replacing it with bigger Government and security.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by TDK1044

If this is what most people in the US want then so be it, but don't then stand there with your flag on July 4th and proclaim how grateful you are to be free, because you're giving up that precious freedom and replacing it with bigger Government and security.

As opposed to our current system of tyranny of the corporation? No thanks. At least I can vote my government out if I don't like the way things are going.

[TDK1044]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

As opposed to our current system of tyranny of the corporation? No thanks. At least I can vote my government out if I don't like the way things are going.

You understand the Electoral College system and how it works, right?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by TDK1044

You understand the Electoral College system and how it works, right?

Very well, thank you. However legislation originates in Congress.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Very well, thank you. However legislation originates in Congress.

and sometimes from the bench

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

As opposed to our current system of tyranny of the corporation? No thanks. At least I can vote my government out if I don't like the way things are going.

And just how is any corporation imposing tyranny upon you mookie? The thing is, you need not buy their products or services if you feel so oppressed by them. They can't make you patronize their goods or services(like government), nor can they levy taxes (such as health care taxes) to make people who work, give up some of their liberty or property for others (like government can do).

TDK1044 is correct. If government mandated health care is what you want, if you believe individual taxpayers should be paying for you and your health care, July 4th is not your holiday. You have no business celebrating Liberty when your goal is to infringe on the liberty of others. Washington, Jefferson, and Adams are not a part of your heritage. You may want to be reliant and fearful of government mookie, but some of us actually crave freedom and prefer personal responsibility, and the freedom of choices which come with it. My personal liberty and property is non-negotiable for me. People need to have a sense of responsibility for themselves and their own healthcare. I am merely responsible for me and my own family. And each taxpayer is responsible unto themselves accordingly.

Screw your government run healthcare if it infringes on my liberty. And as things look....it does.

Originally Posted by CastleBravo

Centrist Dem Leader: Has Committee Votes To Block Health Bill

Nice to see some barriers to this stuff starting to form.

[Buddahaid]

But as I pointed out, you already do pay for the uninsured through increased costs and insurance premiums. You have the freedom to join the uninsured and become part of the problem, or be insured and pay for the uninsured. Hospitals do not have an option to turn away emergency patients. It's a catch 22 which why I want some form of universal wellness care, perhaps not this one, but something.

You have nothing without your health, and people with nothing become desperate and more criminal. How about a real world alternative suggestion that balances individual responsibility with social responsibility.

Buddahaid

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Screw your government run healthcare if it infringes on my liberty. And as things look....it does.

If personal liberty is so important to you, then pledge to never ever use any kind of government service. Someone breaks into your house? You don't get to call the police. Stay off of my roads if you resent having to pay taxes for the upkeep of them. And dig your own well and get off of my municipal water grid. Hope you have a fire extinguisher or 10 around in case your garage catches fire.

We have these things because we as a society have decided it's good for our society to be safe and healthy. Healthcare is no different. The societal benefits of a healthy population are argument enough for universal healthcare.

To quote someone more eloquent than me:

“some societies, ours included, from time to time decide that its citizens, or certain groups of them, should be entitled to certain benefits. Sometimes this [is] justified by the common good -- a well-educated populace serves society well, so we guarantee an education to all children. Sometimes this is derived from humanitarian principles -- children should not go hungry, so we create childhood nutrition programs. Healthcare would, in my estimation, fall into the category of an entitlement rather than a right..."

[AVGWarhawk]

Mookie,

I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it.

Ben Franklin

Our nation is making it to easy. Want to succeed is becoming a thing of the past. Why bother if only I'm only paying for someone elses good time sitting on the couch?

BTW, superstucture, ie, water utilities, roads can not be compared to healthcare provided by the government IMO. Really, renters do not pay property taxes so why do they enjoy these roads and water paid by tax payors?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Mookie,



Ben Franklin

Our nation is making it to easy. Want to succeed is becoming a thing of the past. Why bother if only I'm only paying for someone elses good time sitting on the couch?

BTW, superstucture, ie, water utilities, roads can not be compared to healthcare provided by the government IMO. Really, renters do not pay property taxes so why do they enjoy these roads and water paid by tax payors?

If the property taxes on a rental property go up, you can bet that the rents will increase soon after.

If you want to bring the founding fathers into it..."Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"...how can you have any of them if you're seriously sick?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

If the property taxes on a rental property go up, you can bet that the rents will increase soon after.

If you want to bring the founding fathers into it..."Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"...how can you have any of them if you're seriously sick?

Oh, I'm sorry bro, did I get you sick? Is this somehow my problem? Communial living? I have had three collapsed lungs. Did I show up to your house for cash for doctor bills so I could have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Well, no! I was not your problem. I'm sure you feel for me though but you ain't cracking out the checkbook now are ya?

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

If you want to bring the founding fathers into it..."Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"...how can you have any of them if you're seriously sick?

Is it genetic, or lifestyle? Remember how many children are obese and how many are starving(food deficient) in the US.

[Buddahaid]

I forgot to add the amount of your tax dollar that goes to medicare already and if your worried about fraud, digest this. Habitual hard drug users and alcoholics go to your friendly local ER when they feel bad. They know all they have to do is complain of chest pain to get attention, very expensive attention that has to be taken seriously. Delaying the health care for those who pay for their insurance and using materials and bed-space, plus often police and paramedic resources as well if they are violent or abusive. Sometimes they even begin destroying equipment. Sure they get in trouble but they will be back, or in prison using up more of your hard earned money. Any good ideas of how to fix that?

Buddahaid

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

To quote someone more eloquent than me:
Quote:
“some societies, ours included, from time to time decide that its citizens, or certain groups of them, should be entitled to certain benefits. Sometimes this [is] justified by the common good -- a well-educated populace serves society well, so we guarantee an education to all children. Sometimes this is derived from humanitarian principles -- children should not go hungry, so we create childhood nutrition programs. Healthcare would, in my estimation, fall into the category of an entitlement rather than a right..."

Source: http://www.healthpolicywatch.org/commentary.asp?opedid=2071

I’m not sure that the average ER doc should be paid $180,000 more than he is today. (I would agree that, when compared to many specialists, ER docs are not overpaid—and theirs is a very demanding job. But $180,000 seems a large sum

....seems a large sum ... Sure, start deciding what doctor's should get paid, that should motivate young med students

Why should I pay for Joey Couchpotato who spends his weekend getting his arse kicked at the local bar and spending the night at the local ER on my dime?

Yes. That got me to thinking about a lot of people who engage in high risk activities, such as (ahem!) motorcycle riding, for one. It was not long ago I was reading Motorcyle Houston forums, and these guys who buy $12,000 sport bikes and go ripping up the roads at 200 mph; one of them was giving advice about using Ben Taub Hospital in Houston for crash treatments, because Ben Taud does not pursue to collect payment.

Hope all those involved are going to make it...Just a little inside info for you guys...Ben Taub doesn't try to collect on bills it sends people. They will send a bill once, maybe twice, then nothing further. They average about 16% collection of payments. Not sure what Cody's health insurance status is, but hope this is helpful.

Seriously, all we need in this country is more enabling of people who won't take care of themselves and want us to pay for their mistakes.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Source: http://www.healthpolicywatch.org/commentary.asp?opedid=2071




....seems a large sum ... Sure, start deciding what doctor's should get paid, that should motivate young med students





Yes. That got me to thinking about a lot of people who engage in high risk activities, such as (ahem!) motorcycle riding, for one. It was not long ago I was reading Motorcyle Houston forums, and these guys who buy $12,000 sport bikes and go ripping up the roads at 200 mph; one of them was giving advice about using Ben Taub Hospital in Houston for crash treatments, because Ben Taud does not pursue to collect payment.




Seriously, all we need in this country is more enabling of people who won't take care of themselves and want us to pay for their mistakes.

Neal, you're absolutely right in your points.

Alas, however, there is a medium. Personally, I've always advocated excise taxes for those who behave recklessly.