Teh Nazis!

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

What are you tought at school for exsample?

They don't teach anything about WWII here at all (almost, we watched the movies Schindler's List and the Diary Of Anne Frank, but that was it practically).
I had history as one of my main subjects for my graduation. We were doing National Socialism only from 1933 until 1939.
When the real nasty stuff started we either changed the subject or the year was over (don't remember any more what of that happened).
We also didn't learn anything about WWI except that it happened (hey, at least we watched the movie "All Quiet On The Western Front", but it doesn't explain WHY anything happened.
This is the point were we come back to the original topic. I think one of the biggest mistakes is not to teach anything about WWII in school (at least not where I went to school 10 years ago, maybe that's different in other states here). I think even superficial knowledge of the war should be enough to destroy any good image of Hitler. All the big mistakes he has been making should be enough to identify him as a total idiot. Add that up with all the crimes that happened and no one with a brain should be willing to follow someone like him anymore.

I dont know about other countries but in Finnish schools, the WW1 victors treatment of Germany, is seen as a direct link to WW2.

Same here. The Versaille Treaty was one of the main reasons why the Republic of Weimar never had a chance.

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

They don't teach anything about WWII here at all (almost, we watched the movies Schindler's List and the Diary Of Anne Frank, but that was it practically).
I had history as one of my main subjects for my graduation. We were doing National Socialism only from 1933 until 1939.
When the real nasty stuff started we either changed the subject or the year was over (don't remember any more what of that happened).
We also didn't learn anything about WWI except that it happened (hey, at least we watched the movie "All Quiet On The Western Front", but it doesn't explain WHY anything happened.
This is the point were we come back to the original topic. I think one of the biggest mistakes is not to teach anything about WWII in school (at least not where I went to school 10 years ago, maybe that's different in other states here). I think even superficial knowledge of the war should be enough to destroy any good image of Hitler. All the big mistakes he has been making should be enough to identify him as a total idiot. Add that up with all the crimes that happened and no one with a brain should be willing to follow someone like him anymore.

Must be different from state to state or even city to city. The school I went to covert WW2 quite extensively, and to some detail even WW 1.
I remember writing a couple of essays about WW2 and asking my Grandparents for details.

[heartc]

It's very simple, really. It were difficult times back then, and after WWI, Germany wasn't dealt with all that fairly (which however is to be expected when loosing a f*cking World War), the Weimar Republic was unable to conduct policy in a believable and meaningfull manner, the country was threatened by communism from the outside as well as the inside, which most people soundly rejected, so when a man appeared who gave hysterical speeches (I still don't get all this "he was a great speaker" BS) who pretended to know the solution to all problems, people a) fell for it or b) considered him to be the lesser of evils. They all failed to see that you cannot build something on the basis of hatred, though. Or they tried to ignore those parts, which is difficult to imagine though because then there's not much of a Hitler speech left. Anyway, that is what happened and we have to accept that, end of story.

But OF COURSE, that DOESN'T mean that Germany today should belittle itself in international politics or take the Nazi blame card when someone else is running out of proper arguments. And frankly, I don't see that happening all that much, anyway. And if it does, we shouldn't take it all that seriously, as it is usually for domestic reasons of the other country as it tries to appeal to her lowest-in-intellect demographic group, and nothing else.

Those guys on "YouTube" that you talked about, Bewolf - they are usually the dumbest creatures to populate the internet since recently. On international YouTube but especially country-specific YouTube, because they are those guys who haven't even discovered that one of the points of the internet is to be an international platform or they can't even speak basic English that would suffice for their one-liners. I'm not surprised at all when YouTube commentators think they are onto yet another global and/or probably Jewish world conspiracy. I wouldn't even talk to them, they should go f*ck themselves. They are those people where I wonder how they even survive each day with so many trucks on the roads.

But I know that this dumb crap is unfortunately not only limited to YouTube, you also can hear it in on other - real life - occasions. Well, this is the result of the retarded way how this country and many parents dealt with our history.

Pretending that "the Nazis" had nothing to do with "the Germans" but fell down from Mars is how not to deal with it. Whining that some 70 years after, people are still remembering the Nazis and the fire that swept through all of Europe, is how not to deal with it. They will remember it in 1000 years. Pretending that other countries are using the Nazi card against us when *we* f*cked up, is not how to deal with it. Comparing Israel's struggle in the ME against people that think Dead Jew = Good Jew to the wars of aggression Nazi-Germany fought, is not how to deal with it. Whining that the US are running Konzentrationslager when they hold captive illegal combatants, is not how to deal with it. Comparing Bush to Hitler is not how to deal with it.

But suggesting to young children that they are somehow guilty by birth is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that conservative values are always somehow on the brink to fall off into Nazism, is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that "Left/Green" is always good and "Right" is always bad, is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that any notion of national pride or the wish to keep national / cultural identity is somehow evil, is not how to deal with it either. When you try to stop people from becoming Nazis / irrational by fighting their very own identity and declare evil their very basic, natural and human notions of "my culture", "my country" and "my people", which have been with humans since ever, then you will instead make them RECEPTIBLE for another madman who will step into the void that was left open irresponsibly by a lot of dumbasses who were busy with trying to be "less Nazi" than the next guy or their political opponent.

Originally Posted by heartc

It's very simple, really. It were difficult times back then, and after WWI, Germany wasn't dealt with all that fairly (which however is to be expected when loosing a f*cking World War), the Weimar Republic was unable to conduct policy in a believable and meaningfull manner, the country was threatened by communism from the outside as well as the inside, which most people soundly rejected, so when a man appeared who gave hysterical speeches (I still don't get all this "he was a great speaker" BS) who pretended to know the solution to all problems, people a) fell for it or b) considered him to be the lesser of evils. They all failed to see that you cannot build something on the basis of hatred, though. Or they tried to ignore those parts, which is difficult to imagine though because then there's not much of a Hitler speech left. Anyway, that is what happened and we have to accept that, end of story.

But OF COURSE, that DOESN'T mean that Germany today should belittle itself in international politics or take the Nazi blame card when someone else is running out of proper arguments. And frankly, I don't see that happening all that much, anyway. And if it does, we shouldn't take it all that seriously, as it is usually for domestic reasons of the other country as it tries to appeal to her lowest-in-intellect demographic group, and nothing else.

Those guys on "YouTube" that you talked about, Bewolf - they are usually the dumbest creatures to populate the internet since recently. On international YouTube but especially country-specific YouTube, because they are those guys who haven't even discovered that one of the points of the internet is to be an international platform or they can't even speak basic English that would suffice for their one-liners. I'm not surprised at all when YouTube commentators think they are onto yet another global and/or probably Jewish world conspiracy. I wouldn't even talk to them, they should go f*ck themselves. They are those people where I wonder how they even survive each day with so many trucks on the roads.

But I know that this dumb crap is unfortunately not only limited to YouTube, you also can hear it in on other - real life - occasions. Well, this is the result of the retarded way how this country and many parents dealt with our history.

Pretending that "the Nazis" had nothing to do with "the Germans" but fell down from Mars is how not to deal with it. Whining that some 70 years after, people are still remembering the Nazis and the fire that swept through all of Europe, is how not to deal with it. They will remember it in 1000 years. Pretending that other countries are using the Nazi card against us when *we* f*cked up, is not how to deal with it. Comparing Israel's struggle in the ME against people that think Dead Jew = Good Jew to the wars of aggression Nazi-Germany fought, is not how to deal with it. Whining that the US are running Konzentrationslager when they hold captive illegal combatants, is not how to deal with it. Comparing Bush to Hitler is not how to deal with it.

But suggesting to young children that they are somehow guilty by birth is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that conservative values are always somehow on the brink to fall off into Nazism, is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that "Left/Green" is always good and "Right" is always bad, is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that any notion of national pride or the wish to keep national / cultural identity is somehow evil, is not how to deal with it either. When you try to stop people from becoming Nazis / irrational by fighting their very own identity and declare evil their very basic, natural and human notions of "my culture", "my country" and "my people", which have been with humans since ever, then you will instead make them RECEPTIBLE for another madman who will step into the void that was left open irresponsibly by a lot of dumbasses who were busy with trying to be "less Nazi" than the next guy or their political opponent.

Here, too, absolute agreement. Most of what was said in this thread so far I tend to agree with anyways. But this all does not solve the problems. Sure, youtube lures the dumbest people to posting. But the most stupid ones are usually also the most vocal ones, thus also making the biggest impact. With propper education and trust in oneself it is not problem to counter these folks, but the real problem is most youtube users usually are of lower age. And at this age a lot about future character development and views is decided.

Now imagine, you are 17 years of age, school taught you about atrocities and the ever returning "do not forget" on the one hand, the achievements of german society back then till today on the other hand, making you a little bit proud of the turnaround we managed, and then you go on forums, boards, youtube, basicly all international communication platforms the internet provides nowadays, and you get spit in your face.

Sure, the folks doing this spitting usually are the more stupid people, those without propper knowledge or simply to the fanatical right or left from other countries that consider all their ills in their country today as a result of the war. But your average 17 year old won't be able to differ between mature folks and stupid ones yet.

Let's also say most are right that the german governemnt is rather incapable and no solution will be found from within the political establishment in the foreseeable future due to political correctness issues and most of all, simple convinience in not changing ways that worked for 60 years....how do you personally act?

[August]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

...how do you personally act?

There are no easy answers Bewolf but your youth can't be allowed to give up trying. Germany has to make itself better known for something else and that's going to take a long time. Like I said earlier it hasn't even been a century yet since WW2. That is just a blink of an eye in terms of national identity.

Originally Posted by Thomen

Must be different from state to state or even city to city. The school I went to covert WW2 quite extensively, and to some detail even WW 1.
I remember writing a couple of essays about WW2 and asking my Grandparents for details.

Same here. We even got a good briefing from the end of the Napoleonic wars till today, including the events leading up to 1848/49, foundation of the empire 1871 going through to the timeframe of 1918 and covered the Weimar Republic from this point in time until 1945 and beyond.

Few people realize that the Weimar Constitution was still in effect by 1945 and, as it was never officially absolished, in effect to this day. Actually the whole "Deutsches Reich" was never put ad acta, which leads some concreteheads to proclaim the reestiblishment of the Reich.