Iron Coffins

GoldenRivet · 04-08-09, 08:44 AM

No shortage of opinions on Iron Coffins.

I do believe it to be a compulsory read and at least a part of any U-Boat book collection.

It doesnt have to be the collection's center piece... but i would feel any collection would be incomplete without it.

On a personal note... I find the "all Werner did was survive" comment to be annoying, disrespectful and in poor taste.

surviving the U-boat war is no small accomplishment in itself.

i'll remind you that Werner himself peered through a number of UZO oculars while orchestrating surfaced night attacks while serving as executive officer aboard other boats.

not that it matters.

to me - even if a soldier only shuffled papers during the war - he is still an honored veteran.

Kapt Z · 04-08-09, 09:11 AM

[quote=GoldenRivet;1079975]

On a personal note... I find the "all Werner did was survive" comment to be annoying, disrespectful and in poor taste.

surviving the U-boat war is no small accomplishment in itself.[quote]

Well said.

LukeFF · 04-13-09, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

i'll remind you that Werner himself peered through a number of UZO oculars while orchestrating surfaced night attacks while serving as executive officer aboard other boats.

Maybe in training, but not in combat.

FIREWALL · 04-13-09, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Maybe in training, but not in combat.

If you even read the book you'de know different.

GoldenRivet · 04-13-09, 11:57 PM

Yes... in combat.

attacking targets and formulating bearing and range information though the UZO/TBT during surfaced attacks was generally the job of the "exec" - a capacity in which Werner served for several very successful patrols.

do read the book, and visit u-boat.net and learn of the history of the u-boat war... it will be very enlightening.

Sensekhmet · 04-14-09, 09:05 AM

War is complicated business.
I always wondered, why people think that war criminals, murderers, rapists and the lot were any different from 'normal' people with families, talents, hobbies and interests. My hobby is motorsports, I don't even think about comparing it to war, but it does put 'normal' people under stress. And guess what? People change. In everyday life I'm a lazy slacker bastard, very careful not to get myself hurt or even dirty. When I'm racing, I'm a perfectionist, unforgiving (to myself and others), I get cold, emotionless, I'm in a state that can perhaps be best described as 'cold controlled aggressive sociopath', watching the world through squinted eyes and with a stiff jaw. I do things that in normal situation would make me scream like a little girl, not to mention things that would put me in harm's way an things I'd be UNABLE to do in the first place. Belieave me, I can slide the car while racing, but in normal everyday driving I get stiff, my hair stands on end and usually I screw up if I loose grip (of course, experience makes such situations a lot easier to handle and I know how to prevent them from happening in the first place). I'll also happily put myself under both physical and mental strain. Only when I return home I'm shocked to feel like I'm dead: my muscles hurt, I have strains and bruises (where did those come from?) and mentally I feel like a zombie, like someone scooped out my brain and left nothing but an empty space. But it's all good the next day, I'm back to my normal self. I sit down in front of my PC and browse through photos from the last day's event, knowing it was me who did those things but already finding it hard to believe. "Yeah, I guess it's me in that photo... but I couldn't possibly do those things, could I? Look at me, I'm just a normal guy."
What I'm trying to say is this: I think war puts normal people in unnormal situations, and they have to cope. But to cope, our organisms need to shift back to primal survival mode and that means people behave differently then they do normally. I also think it's impossible to say, how a proffessor, milkman, miner or a convict will act once the battle stress hits. Some of this stress can be replicated in training but ultimately I think it's a different reaction for each individual. Who will be a coward, a hero, a mate you can relay your life on and who will turn out to be a cocky idiot that will get himself and his squad killed? I can't say 'I'd done this and that differently under those conditions' because I simply do not know myself well enough.

I hope my post makes any sense to you guys.

LukeFF · 04-14-09, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

If you even read the book you'de know different.

Take it up with Dr. Rohwer if you don't like what I've written. Or did you not read my quoted comment up above about how, if all the errors in IC were underlined in red ink, the book would look like a bloodbath?

FIREWALL · 04-14-09, 01:51 PM

Could that Dr. Rohwer be blowing his own horn ?

Heck, Das Boot was full of holes and it didn't stop it from being a good read and a good movie.

LukeFF · 04-14-09, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

Could that Dr. Rohwer be blowing his own horn ?

Not hardly. He is a respected historian and took the time to do the research on the so-called "facts" presented in IC. Have you taken any time to conduct any research on the matter, or are you simply parroting the praise others here have for the book?

nikbear · 04-14-09, 06:45 PM

Was wondering what actually is the accusation that Dr Rohwer is making with regards to IC?

FIREWALL · 04-14-09, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Not hardly. He is a respected historian and took the time to do the research on the so-called "facts" presented in IC. Have you taken any time to conduct any research on the matter, or are you simply parroting the praise others here have for the book?

Sounds more like your defending your boyfriend the good DR's honor.

Thomen · 04-14-09, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Take it up with Dr. Rohwer if you don't like what I've written. Or did you not read my quoted comment up above about how, if all the errors in IC were underlined in red ink, the book would look like a bloodbath?

I use some parts of Rohwers work for my own research. However, there are inconsistencies where his version does not add up, or can't be correlated by other sources. Basically, what that means, I have to double check everything what might be interesting for my research and where he is the main source.

Sensekhmet · 04-15-09, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomen

Basically, what that means, I have to double check everything what might be interesting for my research and where he is the main source.

I always thought that double (heck, even triple) checking and cross referencing was the standard research method, regardless of subject or author.

Thomen · 04-15-09, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensekhmet

I always thought that double (heck, even triple) checking and cross referencing was the standard research method, regardless of subject or author.

Oh it is, but unfortunately it is not always that easy or even doable. And it gets very frustrating if you know your main source's conclusions are at least questionable, but everyone points you back at it as the being the 'sole authority' on the subject anyways, as it is the case with Rohwer. It gets even worse if the actual amount of information is rather limited.

Kpt. Lehmann · 04-15-09, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Not hardly. He is a respected historian and took the time to do the research on the so-called "facts" presented in IC. Have you taken any time to conduct any research on the matter, or are you simply parroting the praise others here have for the book?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Take it up with Dr. Rohwer if you don't like what I've written. Or did you not read my quoted comment up above about how, if all the errors in IC were underlined in red ink, the book would look like a bloodbath?

EVERY personal account of submarine warfare is written with the author'(s) spin on any given situation... REGARDLESS of nationality.

NO INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNT of submarine warfare should be viewed as a cross-section of typical life within any given branch.

Iron coffins is a great read whatever you BELIEVE or however you may FEEL about it or its surrounding subject matter.

What IS obvious is that you are unable to make your case with any class.

Take your attitude problem elsewhere.

04-08-09, 08:44 AM	#1
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	No shortage of opinions on Iron Coffins. I do believe it to be a compulsory read and at least a part of any U-Boat book collection. It doesnt have to be the collection's center piece... but i would feel any collection would be incomplete without it. On a personal note... I find the "all Werner did was survive" comment to be annoying, disrespectful and in poor taste. surviving the U-boat war is no small accomplishment in itself. i'll remind you that Werner himself peered through a number of UZO oculars while orchestrating surfaced night attacks while serving as executive officer aboard other boats. not that it matters. to me - even if a soldier only shuffled papers during the war - he is still an honored veteran. __________________

04-13-09, 11:57 PM	#5
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	Yes... in combat. attacking targets and formulating bearing and range information though the UZO/TBT during surfaced attacks was generally the job of the "exec" - a capacity in which Werner served for several very successful patrols. do read the book, and visit u-boat.net and learn of the history of the u-boat war... it will be very enlightening. __________________

04-14-09, 01:51 PM	#8
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	Could that Dr. Rohwer be blowing his own horn ? Heck, Das Boot was full of holes and it didn't stop it from being a good read and a good movie. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

04-14-09, 06:45 PM	#10
nikbear Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Northampton,UK Posts: 1,859 Downloads: 86 Uploads: 0	Was wondering what actually is the accusation that Dr Rohwer is making with regards to IC? __________________ 'It is not surely known when the grey wolf shall come upon the seat of the gods' Ericksmal.

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04-08-09, 09:11 AM	#2
Kapt Z Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: ...somewhere in the swamps of Jersey. Posts: 909 Downloads: 157 Uploads: 0	[quote=GoldenRivet;1079975] On a personal note... I find the "all Werner did was survive" comment to be annoying, disrespectful and in poor taste. surviving the U-boat war is no small accomplishment in itself.[quote] Well said.

04-14-09, 09:05 AM	#6
Sensekhmet Loader Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Poland Posts: 89 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	War is complicated business. I always wondered, why people think that war criminals, murderers, rapists and the lot were any different from 'normal' people with families, talents, hobbies and interests. My hobby is motorsports, I don't even think about comparing it to war, but it does put 'normal' people under stress. And guess what? People change. In everyday life I'm a lazy slacker bastard, very careful not to get myself hurt or even dirty. When I'm racing, I'm a perfectionist, unforgiving (to myself and others), I get cold, emotionless, I'm in a state that can perhaps be best described as 'cold controlled aggressive sociopath', watching the world through squinted eyes and with a stiff jaw. I do things that in normal situation would make me scream like a little girl, not to mention things that would put me in harm's way an things I'd be UNABLE to do in the first place. Belieave me, I can slide the car while racing, but in normal everyday driving I get stiff, my hair stands on end and usually I screw up if I loose grip (of course, experience makes such situations a lot easier to handle and I know how to prevent them from happening in the first place). I'll also happily put myself under both physical and mental strain. Only when I return home I'm shocked to feel like I'm dead: my muscles hurt, I have strains and bruises (where did those come from?) and mentally I feel like a zombie, like someone scooped out my brain and left nothing but an empty space. But it's all good the next day, I'm back to my normal self. I sit down in front of my PC and browse through photos from the last day's event, knowing it was me who did those things but already finding it hard to believe. "Yeah, I guess it's me in that photo... but I couldn't possibly do those things, could I? Look at me, I'm just a normal guy." What I'm trying to say is this: I think war puts normal people in unnormal situations, and they have to cope. But to cope, our organisms need to shift back to primal survival mode and that means people behave differently then they do normally. I also think it's impossible to say, how a proffessor, milkman, miner or a convict will act once the battle stress hits. Some of this stress can be replicated in training but ultimately I think it's a different reaction for each individual. Who will be a coward, a hero, a mate you can relay your life on and who will turn out to be a cocky idiot that will get himself and his squad killed? I can't say 'I'd done this and that differently under those conditions' because I simply do not know myself well enough. I hope my post makes any sense to you guys.