The allies could of ended the U-boat war much earlier.

[goggles]

as others have stated all the allied bombers did was drive the germans underground and force them to become more effcient with the materials they had

that being said...

allied bombers did indeed strangle germany the destruction of synthetic fuel facilities was a death blow to german military efforts the luftwaffe didnt have enough fuel to protect the factories, the heer had no fuel to shunt thier king tigers around and the u boats had no fuel to go on patrol

another nail in the coffin was the destruction of germanys railway infastructure it was being bombed faster than it could be repaired and rail was the primary means of transporting raw materials to the factorys causing crippling shortages

another valid point is the fact that germany did not moblize its women for the factories when the men left for war leaving them desprately short of skilled workers(the germans often sent engineers and scientists to the front rather put them to work in design and constuction) which lead to ever incresing dependance on slave labor and with an increasing number of workers being made homeless by bombing raids fewer and fewer showed up for work

the end result of fewer and less skilled workers greatly exagerated existing design flaws in late war designs the main reason late war tanks were so unreliable was partly due to sabotage by unwilling slave larborers and poor workmanship(cigarette butts jammed in oil galleys, teeth deliberately chipped off gears)

had germany taken the british or american approach to mass war production the war would have certainly dragged on longer and german victory would ahve been a possiblity

[A Very Super Market]

Oh... you kid, good sir.

A German victory after 1940 was impossible. Perhaps if Germany managed to invade Britain, it may have been within grasp, but not after Moscow. It would hardly have mattered if their industrial output was better, since the weight of three gigantic nations and their combined output would outmatch it completely.

[goggles]

i would be so bold as to say german victory was still a possiblity until later 1941

if it werent for the bumbling of a certian austrian corporal

a few critical mistakes...

halting guderians panzers at dunkerque when they should have thrown an all out land,air and naval assault at the stranded britsh expeditionary force

resorting to terror bombing london instead of concentrating on RAF installations just when they bombings were starting to make headway they should have pounded the RAF into ashs whilst it ws still on the ground

total lack of commitment to the north african campaign(argueably the biggest missed oportunity of the war) the british were critically weak here Hitler should have listened to Rommel and Raeder's urgings to gain full control of the medditerranen and force the british to abandon gibralter. if rommel(a brillant leader if therre ever was) was given the forces he required he could have easily rolled over british egypt, gained control of the suez and drove on into iraq and turkey thus threatening the oil fields of the caucus without so much as a declaration of war against russia.

Rommel really was that good and the British really were that weak in north africa such a campaign could have easily been undertaken had Hitler listened and given his full support instead of pursueing a foolish self destructive war of attrition against russia

[A Very Super Market]

I don't see how the German navy could have forced the British from gibraltar, seeing as how they would have to get through either Scapa or the channel to get there. The Italians obviously couldn't toss them out either.

Dunkirk was before Moscow, and even if they had destroyed the RAF, there would still be significant doubt on Sealion's success.

Also, the British certainly weren't "weak" in North Africa. If anything, it was lacklustre command that saw their defeats, but there eventually will be a point when Rommel would have lost too many units, as well as having an extended supply line for replacements.

[goggles]

they could force the british out of gibralter via constant bombing from bases in north africa same way the british forced gneisnau and friends out of france

seeing as rommel was almost constantly outnumbered in north africa by the british and yet he drove them back to the egyptian frontier with relative ease

yes supplys were a problem due to RN units based in malta but this could have been alliviated as well they should have taken malta in the same stroke as crete

Rommel himself in out of fustration of the few units he was receiving being thinned further due to loses even offered to take malta himself:rotfl:

malta was by no means an impentrable fortress the germans just never made a concentrated effort to take it instead of revaluating paratroops after crete they simply ceased these operations all togther thus denying themselves the means to take malta

[A Very Super Market]

With what North African air bases? Vichy France was not German that way... And the luftwaffe was hard-pressed in Britain and Russia. Gneisau and Scharnhorst were forced out at a time when Germany no longer had any semblance to air superiority

[goggles]

nonetheless with most of the mediterranean coast under german, italian or puppet state control the british postion in gibralter would be severly weakened

and if the germans really wanted they could simply strong arm the vichy in granting bases in north africa the vichy werent exactly in a postion to deny the germans


and you know your history well sir


also i should point out that this scenario takes place with germany having not declared war on russia which was the logical thing to do stalin was much to paranoid to make the first move against germany

[harzfeld]

Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

I don't see how the German navy could have forced the British from gibraltar, seeing as how they would have to get through either Scapa or the channel to get there. The Italians obviously couldn't toss them out either.

Spain was in middle of civil war & remain neutral, Hitler could have saw it as good opportunity to attack & take over instead of that Operation Barbarossa. Hitler's one of his typical saying, "We have to be ruthless." I guess he wasn't that cruel enough to conqueror Spain just to get Brits out of Gibraltar. Comparing to Operation Barbarossa, Spain should have be much easier, after all wasn't Spain more of leaning to Allied than Axis?

[A Very Super Market]

No, wrong. Spain was under Franco's rule right now, and he was also a fascist. Germany even lent his forces support during the civil war. I strongly suggest you patch up you history. Germany isn't a land full of soldiers, and Spain had an experienced army, with German weapons, no less. If they were to invade, the Germans would surely win eventually, but at what cost? The men needed to conquer Spain would be sorely missed in Russia, or North Africa, and resistance would spring up even more with less garrison.

[Lt.Fillipidis]

I agree with Very Super Market.
Opening more fronts when those you need to close are already too many
is an unacceptable mistake. And nor Hitler nor his officers were stupid.
They may have overestimated the soldiers' zeal towards the war but they knew their
strength in numbers nonetheless.

[Kapt Z]

Originally Posted by harzfeld

Spain was in middle of civil war & remain neutral, Hitler could have saw it as good opportunity to attack & take over instead of that Operation Barbarossa. Hitler's one of his typical saying, "We have to be ruthless." I guess he wasn't that cruel enough to conqueror Spain just to get Brits out of Gibraltar. Comparing to Operation Barbarossa, Spain should have be much easier, after all wasn't Spain more of leaning to Allied than Axis?

I think Spain would have been a harder nut to crack than you think. If I were Hitler I would have concentrated on taking Malta and then supporting Rommel as much as possible to take Egypt and the canal. Then the Germans could have controlled the entire Med and pushed on into the oil fields of Arabia. Sure the British would have sortied from Gibraltar, but then their ships would have had to run the gauntlet of Axis airbases with no friendly ports left to seek shelter and repairs.

[Dread Knot]

Sooner or later Hitler was going to turn his sights on Russia whether England was subdued or not. He simply couldn't abide sharing the continent with a neighbor that powerful and that was going to grow even more powerful over time. If the Germans would have attacked Britain via the Mediterranean in 1941 and managed to knock them out of the Middle East, Russia's position would have been worse off, but not hopeless. She would still have all her territory, all her armies and more time to prepare. Additionally, it is possible that America would have been so frightened by Britain's possible collapse she would have sent as much military aide to Britain and Russia as possible. It should also be remembered that Stalin and his Generals were implementing many wide-ranging reforms during 1941 that would have borne fruit in 1942 and the Red Army would have displayed much more competence and skill than it managed to do when the Germans actually invaded. With these considerations in mind, it is likely that Russia would have been in a better position to resist the Germans in 1942 than 1941.

Also, a paranoid like Hitler probably would have been loathe to adopt a strategy that depended so much on a unreliable ally like Italy. Hitler was suspicious of everyone, even his allies. Had Rommel been able to cross the Suez and capture the oilfields intact (not likely) any resources from them would have had to depend on the Italian tanker fleet and merchant marine to cross the Mediterranean back to Europe. That basically put Italy in control of the oil spigot since there was no way for German cargo ships to enter the Med if Gibraltar was still in British hands.

[rubenandthejets]

Originally Posted by Kapt Z

I think Spain would have been a harder nut to crack than you think. If I were Hitler I would have concentrated on taking Malta and then supporting Rommel as much as possible to take Egypt and the canal. Then the Germans could have controlled the entire Med and pushed on into the oil fields of Arabia. Sure the British would have sortied from Gibraltar, but then their ships would have had to run the gauntlet of Axis airbases with no friendly ports left to seek shelter and repairs.

There's no way Hitler would have invaded Spain-he was expecting big things in return for his support of Franco during the civil war and he got a lot of minerals from there. Unfortunately Franco ripped him off and apart from some small concessions like restocking uboats and allowing "volunteers" to fight in Russia there wasn't anywhere near the payback Hitler was expecting. Still, why turn on another Fascist state?

[goggles]

triple post ftw:rotfl: