[TEC] Flt Boat Propulsion Sys Damage Model

Observer · 04-07-08, 07:08 PM

Has anyone been successful in correcting the damage model for the fleet boat engine rooms especially with respect to the 4 main propulsion diesels generators and the 4 main electric motors (not counting the Aux diesel generator)? As it stands now, if the #1 & #2 diesels and/or #1 & #2 e-motors are destroyed, the surface and/or submerged propulsion mode is lost.

Ducimus · 04-07-08, 07:27 PM

Nope. No 3d modler that im aware of as focused on it. Bascialy fleet boat zones are setup like a uboat, with the engines 1 an 2 being mapped to the two engine damage zones that exist, and engines 3 and 4 not mapped at all. Same for Motors. There are only two engine damage zones, not four.

Old thread that is relevant to this dicussion:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=126312

Observer · 04-07-08, 07:31 PM

Okay. Just checking to make sure I didn't waste my time. I've a proof of concept that tested out successfully last night but needs more work.

BTW, it's not just the zon file that needs work, it's also the sim, zones.cfg and DAT.

Ducimus · 04-07-08, 07:41 PM

What did you have to do to the Dat file? A file incompatiblity here might be painful. Dat files have been built up on a little. 4 bladed props, prop rotation correction, and an some engine exhaust effects. I have an earlier version of this posted, but the latest version ive yet to release. I may kick it out the door late tonight or tommrrow, im kinda anxious to be done. Just have to write up the docs that few bother to read and upload it.

Observer · 04-07-08, 07:50 PM

Think extra nodes. It's really a simple cloning exercise for the props.

Although, you've just given me an idea that may work and solve one of the problems I had with the original proof of concept, and that may mean no change to the DAT file. I'll have to test that out and see if it works.

I did the proof of concept on a modded version. I'm going to do it on a clean version just to be sure there are no mod conflicts at play. This will take a bit of time, so I'll post up the necessary files when finished for those interested.

Ducimus · 04-07-08, 08:01 PM

Ill try and post sometime tongiht what i had intended to be the last updates to the TM mod.

In one of these you'll find the updated dat files if your interested in them. I was intending to pull these dats and upload them seperatly for the RFB folks to use, so i could PM you the link if you want. My hope is to help reduce or eliminate file incompatiblties so nobody's forced to reinvent the wheel. Said dats in question have already been touched by two other modders not including myself. One did the props, another fixed their rotation, i added 4 nodes in each one to simulate exhaust effects.
(http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/new_exhaust.jpg ). They're not perfect, but their reasonable.

gimpy117 · 04-07-08, 08:53 PM

nice....that will make the boat much more survivable!

now when engine 1 and two are down i might have 3 and 4 ready.

how bout having all four kick on virtually in game at flank speed??

Rockin Robbins · 04-08-08, 08:49 AM

the most significant change in sub modeling in the game. Suddenly the advantages of four diesels over two would be obvious, where it is totally hidden within the vestigal framework of SH3. Observer, go for it! This is big.

tater · 04-08-08, 09:02 AM

I messed with this a little and decided that the easy fix was to make the engines in the fleet boats impossible to destroy short of sinking the sub.

This is entirely realistic. To be dead in the water from engine damage, a US sub would have to have 5 diesels totally inoperable. This is simply not plausible (except HOR boats, lol, and they'd have the problem with no damage at all, lol).

Easy fix, make diesels impossible to destroy.

tater

DrBeast · 04-08-08, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

I messed with this a little and decided that the easy fix was to make the engines in the fleet boats impossible to destroy short of sinking the sub.

This is entirely realistic. To be dead in the water from engine damage, a US sub would have to have 5 diesels totally inoperable. This is simply not plausible (except HOR boats, lol, and they'd have the problem with no damage at all, lol).

Easy fix, make diesels impossible to destroy.

tater

That's the route I followed as well, but if someone can work out how to make all the engines operative, that'd be great indeed. I'll keep some fingers crossed for you, Observer...as often as I can spare 'em

tater · 04-08-08, 09:49 AM

If if made to work, one should be impossible to destroy IMO because: 1 there should be an aux, and 2, I cannot imagine a diesel destroyed by DCing to the point where it could never be fixed with 3 engines full of spare parts.

Being stuck mid-ocean because of this is absurd, IMO.

AVGWarhawk · 04-08-08, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

If if made to work, one should be impossible to destroy IMO because: 1 there should be an aux, and 2, I cannot imagine a diesel destroyed by DCing to the point where it could never be fixed with 3 engines full of spare parts.

Being stuck mid-ocean because of this is absurd, IMO.

I agree tater but if Observer believe he can have the engines received damage independantly then we are looking at some good stuff for realism.

tater · 04-08-08, 03:51 PM

True, but I still have trouble with the notion of irreparable diesels due to what is effectively vibration in a DC attack.

M. Sarsfield · 04-08-08, 06:01 PM

I remember in SHCE and earlier sims that one or more engines could be destroyed, but this was mainly from gunfire. My deck was swiss cheese and I had to limp home on the surface.

Observer · 04-08-08, 07:11 PM

In this case (and in my proof of concept testing), the engines are destroyed from naval gunfire in my test mission. Alternately, I think it is possible to destroy the engines from air dropped bombs or air dropped depth charges.

The naval gunfire of course demonstrates an entirely different problem associated with the external damage model and graphic for the submarine - one I've tried to tackle in the past but without good results. Basically, once the pressure hull has been holed, you should not be able to submerge without causing flooding. I haven't yet figured out a way to solve this problem - I'm not even sure it's possible.

Related to tater's comment about destroying a diesel from vibrations, I've seen video footage from Los Angeles' engine room during sea trials from a simulated depth charge attack (may have been simulated RBUs, but I can't recall). It was an eye opening and impressive sight to say the least, especially the damage to hull mounted, or hard mounted lockers. While I'd say it's not really possible to "destroy" a diesel from a depth charge attack without also losing the boat, it doesn't mean the diesel has to be physically ruined (e.g. broken cam, rod, or piston head). It's quite possible to get a mission "kill" due to the loss of a critical support system (e.g. seawater cooling suction valve(s) inoperable).

Link to the proof of concept:
http://rapidshare.de/files/39064306/..._v0.01.7z.html

Notes:
-This proof of concept is for Stock SH4 v1.5 only.
-This version is not a silver bullet - there are still some problems such as max spped at a flank bell with 2 diesels destroyed. In this case I still managed 21 knots with 2 diesels destroyed.
-All permutations and combinations of diesel engine damage have not yet been tested
-This proof of concept is only for the diesels, and has not yet been implemented for the electric motors
-This only effects the damage model, and does not change or otherwise modify the hard coding of the submarine propulsion system, therefore it is not possible to choose the number of diesel engines to have online.
-This proof of concept is only for the Gato.

Testing
A reliable "test" mission needs to be created. I've been using a warship, but this has a number of problems mostly associated with the reproducibility and repeatability of results. I suggest lowering the zone HPs for engines to test to 1 therefore minimizing the damage the ship takes.

If anyone wants to create a reliable test mission this would be appreciated. I would suggest two possibilities:
1. Use an underpowered naval mine to damage the boat. The trick here is to not have to move the boat to get the mine to detonate (e.g. it would cause the damage on mission start).
2. Use an aircraft with underpowered bombs to damage the boat. The aircraft should leave after dropping the bombs.

Either case is preferable to my current warship method and would be necessary to test all permutations and combinations of diesel engine configurations, as well as to identify limitations in this approach (e.g. surface speed as mentioned above).

04-07-08, 08:01 PM	#6
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Ill try and post sometime tongiht what i had intended to be the last updates to the TM mod. In one of these you'll find the updated dat files if your interested in them. I was intending to pull these dats and upload them seperatly for the RFB folks to use, so i could PM you the link if you want. My hope is to help reduce or eliminate file incompatiblties so nobody's forced to reinvent the wheel. Said dats in question have already been touched by two other modders not including myself. One did the props, another fixed their rotation, i added 4 nodes in each one to simulate exhaust effects. (http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/new_exhaust.jpg ). They're not perfect, but their reasonable. Last edited by Ducimus; 04-07-08 at 10:10 PM.

04-07-08, 08:53 PM	#7
gimpy117 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 3,243 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 0	nice....that will make the boat much more survivable! now when engine 1 and two are down i might have 3 and 4 ready. how bout having all four kick on virtually in game at flank speed?? __________________ Member of the Subsim Zombie Army

04-08-08, 08:49 AM	#8
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	This would be the most significant change in sub modeling in the game. Suddenly the advantages of four diesels over two would be obvious, where it is totally hidden within the vestigal framework of SH3. Observer, go for it! This is big. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

04-08-08, 06:01 PM	#14
M. Sarsfield Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,016 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I remember in SHCE and earlier sims that one or more engines could be destroyed, but this was mainly from gunfire. My deck was swiss cheese and I had to limp home on the surface. __________________ MJS USS Batfish Volunteer/Reenactor www.ss310.com www.ussbatfish.com Communism killed over 100M people and all that I got was this lousy signature.* *http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

04-07-08, 07:08 PM	#1
Observer Commander Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 477 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	[TEC] Flt Boat Propulsion Sys Damage Model Has anyone been successful in correcting the damage model for the fleet boat engine rooms especially with respect to the 4 main propulsion diesels generators and the 4 main electric motors (not counting the Aux diesel generator)? As it stands now, if the #1 & #2 diesels and/or #1 & #2 e-motors are destroyed, the surface and/or submerged propulsion mode is lost.

04-07-08, 07:27 PM	#2
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Nope. No 3d modler that im aware of as focused on it. Bascialy fleet boat zones are setup like a uboat, with the engines 1 an 2 being mapped to the two engine damage zones that exist, and engines 3 and 4 not mapped at all. Same for Motors. There are only two engine damage zones, not four. Old thread that is relevant to this dicussion: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=126312

04-07-08, 07:31 PM	#3
Observer Commander Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 477 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Okay. Just checking to make sure I didn't waste my time. I've a proof of concept that tested out successfully last night but needs more work. BTW, it's not just the zon file that needs work, it's also the sim, zones.cfg and DAT.

04-07-08, 07:41 PM	#4
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	What did you have to do to the Dat file? A file incompatiblity here might be painful. Dat files have been built up on a little. 4 bladed props, prop rotation correction, and an some engine exhaust effects. I have an earlier version of this posted, but the latest version ive yet to release. I may kick it out the door late tonight or tommrrow, im kinda anxious to be done. Just have to write up the docs that few bother to read and upload it.

04-07-08, 07:50 PM	#5
Observer Commander Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 477 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Think extra nodes. It's really a simple cloning exercise for the props. Although, you've just given me an idea that may work and solve one of the problems I had with the original proof of concept, and that may mean no change to the DAT file. I'll have to test that out and see if it works. I did the proof of concept on a modded version. I'm going to do it on a clean version just to be sure there are no mod conflicts at play. This will take a bit of time, so I'll post up the necessary files when finished for those interested.

04-08-08, 09:02 AM	#9
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I messed with this a little and decided that the easy fix was to make the engines in the fleet boats impossible to destroy short of sinking the sub. This is entirely realistic. To be dead in the water from engine damage, a US sub would have to have 5 diesels totally inoperable. This is simply not plausible (except HOR boats, lol, and they'd have the problem with no damage at all, lol). Easy fix, make diesels impossible to destroy. tater

04-08-08, 09:49 AM	#11
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	If if made to work, one should be impossible to destroy IMO because: 1 there should be an aux, and 2, I cannot imagine a diesel destroyed by DCing to the point where it could never be fixed with 3 engines full of spare parts. Being stuck mid-ocean because of this is absurd, IMO.

04-08-08, 03:51 PM	#13
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	True, but I still have trouble with the notion of irreparable diesels due to what is effectively vibration in a DC attack.

04-08-08, 07:11 PM	#15
Observer Commander Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 477 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	In this case (and in my proof of concept testing), the engines are destroyed from naval gunfire in my test mission. Alternately, I think it is possible to destroy the engines from air dropped bombs or air dropped depth charges. The naval gunfire of course demonstrates an entirely different problem associated with the external damage model and graphic for the submarine - one I've tried to tackle in the past but without good results. Basically, once the pressure hull has been holed, you should not be able to submerge without causing flooding. I haven't yet figured out a way to solve this problem - I'm not even sure it's possible. Related to tater's comment about destroying a diesel from vibrations, I've seen video footage from Los Angeles' engine room during sea trials from a simulated depth charge attack (may have been simulated RBUs, but I can't recall). It was an eye opening and impressive sight to say the least, especially the damage to hull mounted, or hard mounted lockers. While I'd say it's not really possible to "destroy" a diesel from a depth charge attack without also losing the boat, it doesn't mean the diesel has to be physically ruined (e.g. broken cam, rod, or piston head). It's quite possible to get a mission "kill" due to the loss of a critical support system (e.g. seawater cooling suction valve(s) inoperable). Link to the proof of concept: http://rapidshare.de/files/39064306/..._v0.01.7z.html Notes: -This proof of concept is for Stock SH4 v1.5 only. -This version is not a silver bullet - there are still some problems such as max spped at a flank bell with 2 diesels destroyed. In this case I still managed 21 knots with 2 diesels destroyed. -All permutations and combinations of diesel engine damage have not yet been tested -This proof of concept is only for the diesels, and has not yet been implemented for the electric motors -This only effects the damage model, and does not change or otherwise modify the hard coding of the submarine propulsion system, therefore it is not possible to choose the number of diesel engines to have online. -This proof of concept is only for the Gato. Testing A reliable "test" mission needs to be created. I've been using a warship, but this has a number of problems mostly associated with the reproducibility and repeatability of results. I suggest lowering the zone HPs for engines to test to 1 therefore minimizing the damage the ship takes. If anyone wants to create a reliable test mission this would be appreciated. I would suggest two possibilities: 1. Use an underpowered naval mine to damage the boat. The trick here is to not have to move the boat to get the mine to detonate (e.g. it would cause the damage on mission start). 2. Use an aircraft with underpowered bombs to damage the boat. The aircraft should leave after dropping the bombs. Either case is preferable to my current warship method and would be necessary to test all permutations and combinations of diesel engine configurations, as well as to identify limitations in this approach (e.g. surface speed as mentioned above).