v1.3 Patch And Japanese ASW - Page 4

Ducimus · 07-18-07, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jace11

Ok, maybe I'll give 1.3 another chance. I have been heavily modding the sim.cfg, but it should have made them better not worse..

Don't forget the ai_sensor.dat. By default all JP active sonar (excepting Q sonar equivlant) has a very shallow max elevation. 100 on all. What this means, is its incredibly easy to get under the beam, and due to the projection of the beam, it wont be at its deepest point until its at its maximum range. Which kind of sucks because when the escort is looking for you, you won't be in that deepest portion of the beam most of the time, you'll be under it. This is why they can get a ping from a ways off, but once they get closer, the pinging stops.

Increase the max elevation by a large amount, and you'll get more pinging, but i beleive the problem then becomes making the AI escapable.

cdrsubron7 · 07-18-07, 11:02 PM

Peto, thanks for your help and suggestions. The point of the matter is that I have tried many different angles of approach and depths ranging from PD down to 200 ft without ever having exposed the periscope. This last time I know it was the destroyer out in front who detected me. The other couple of times I came in from the points and am not sure whether one of the flanking DD picked me up or the DD out in front. I've played SH1 for the last ten years as a member of the PTC and have played SH2 and SH3 so I really don't consider myself a novice when it comes to playing SHIV. But since I've tried playing SHIV with the 1.3 I'm really feeling out of my depth. I tried every approach I can think of and I still get detected, it's getting really fustrating.

cdrsubron7

Peto · 07-18-07, 11:56 PM

Considering your experience with subsims, I can definitely understand your frustration. Now that I've been playing 1.3 for quite a few hours, I tend to agree that they've beefed up the detection ranges.

Hang in there! I'm sure more mods are on the way! I'll be looking at tuning down the Japanese Incredi-vision myself and trying to turn up their active sonar some to add challenge when they do find me.

Cheers!

Peto

FAdmiral · 07-18-07, 11:59 PM

400 feet ?? That would be crush depth for all US subs except for the latest
and most recent ones. Most of the subs I have used in 42 & 43 are marked
more shollow than that....

JIM

tater · 07-19-07, 12:03 AM

The mark on the depth gauge is the test depth. They could all go substantially deeper than their test depths.

I think the AI capability can be tweaked, just needs some time.

tater

Miika · 07-19-07, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdrsubron7

Peto, thanks for your help and suggestions. The point of the matter is that I have tried many different angles of approach and depths ranging from PD down to 200 ft without ever having exposed the periscope. This last time I know it was the destroyer out in front who detected me. The other couple of times I came in from the points and am not sure whether one of the flanking DD picked me up or the DD out in front. I've played SH1 for the last ten years as a member of the PTC and have played SH2 and SH3 so I really don't consider myself a novice when it comes to playing SHIV. But since I've tried playing SHIV with the 1.3 I'm really feeling out of my depth. I tried every approach I can think of and I still get detected, it's getting really fustrating.

cdrsubron7

If I remember correctly, you can tweak the detection effectiveness in the sim.cfg (in data/cfg). I too found the detection ranges etc. unrealistically high in 1.3, so I re-installed, copied the sim.cfg from the 1.0 and used it as reference with 1.3. Eventually I've been able to configure the game to be just perfect for me.

Miika

Peto · 07-19-07, 12:21 AM

Yep. A few gato classes went down to 500 feet during the war. The Puffer stayed down that deep for about 27 hours in one of the worst prolonged DC attacks suffered by US boats. The attacking escort was a subchaser!

The Tang (Balao) went to 700 feet--depth gauge didn't go that high so they read the outside water pressure and did the math to figure out how deep they were.

Of course--in the game we tend to be a tad more limited... Wish a Test depth plus a random % could be worked out so you never knew how deep you could safely go.

Cheers!

Peto

Suicide Charlie · 07-19-07, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdrsubron7

Peto, thanks for your help and suggestions. The point of the matter is that I have tried many different angles of approach and depths ranging from PD down to 200 ft without ever having exposed the periscope. This last time I know it was the destroyer out in front who detected me. The other couple of times I came in from the points and am not sure whether one of the flanking DD picked me up or the DD out in front. I've played SH1 for the last ten years as a member of the PTC and have played SH2 and SH3 so I really don't consider myself a novice when it comes to playing SHIV. But since I've tried playing SHIV with the 1.3 I'm really feeling out of my depth. I tried every approach I can think of and I still get detected, it's getting really fustrating.

This is my exact same problem. I've been playing SHIII for quite a while, but I cannot seem to figure out the detection ranges for SHIV for the life of me.

Although, I did manage to intercept an heavily escorted/mixed convoy last night. Ran a bow pattern (run parallel then angle in once oyu've pulled out in front) intercept at dusk and waited till low light to move in. I penetrated the lead and flank DD's somewhat easily, although they did get close to me with a DC run. Damaged my forward dive plane transmission and rudder transmission. Not enough to really effect me or to have me consider coming off silent running to repair.

I scattered the convoy and sent an Agano Light Cruiser to the bottom. I'm currently shadowing right off the port side of another Agano while the DD escorts move around looking for me. Planning how to move into a firing position on one of the two remaining Agano's or a merchant.

It seems that if you're able to put yourself in a favorable position early on (out in front anywhere from 40 to 320 AOB or so) the early detection doesn't seem to matter. Once the DD's close slipping past them isn't too hard or an ordeal.

Tom C · 07-20-07, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Don't forget the ai_sensor.dat. By default all JP active sonar (excepting Q sonar equivlant) has a very shallow max elevation. 100 on all. What this means, is its incredibly easy to get under the beam, and due to the projection of the beam, it wont be at its deepest point until its at its maximum range. Which kind of sucks because when the escort is looking for you, you won't be in that deepest portion of the beam most of the time, you'll be under it. This is why they can get a ping from a ways off, but once they get closer, the pinging stops.

Not sure what 100 max elevation means, or if you were objecting to it or not (and JP was passive, right?). Basically I don't understand modders' talk. But the idea that the ping beam passes over the top of the deep-submerged sub as the escort gets close is RL, I think. Don't eliminate it!

tater · 07-20-07, 03:27 PM

It's the angle at which it loses detection. There will always be a way to go around it, but it might be ahistorically shallow is all.

GerritJ9 · 07-25-07, 07:15 AM

On Feb. 12th 1942 Vice-Admiral Helfrich, C-in-C of the Royal Netherlands navy in the NEI, sent a telegram to Vice-Admiral Furstner, Chief of the Netherlands Naval Staff in London detailing some of the Dutch experiences with IJN A/S warfare:
"According to intelligence supplied by K.XV it appeared during action off Sarawak that Japanese "Amagiri" class destroyers are equipped with sound receivers and not with periphones (?) or Asdic. To track submarines several destroyers searched the area at 12 knots, stopped similtaneously, listened and then proceeded. Destroyers passing directly over the submarine on several occasions showed that they did hear something but the absence of depth charges indicated that they did not know exactly where the submarine was. Later on five depth charges were dropped at random. According to information supplied by K.XVIII the Japanese probably use sound locators and echo receivers whereby use is made of small echo-bombs which are heard as hammer blows on the pressure hull. According to received intelligence Japanese submarines are equipped with Asdic with a constant frequency of 17.5 kilocycles. Scale goes to 6000 metres though usable up to 3000 to 4000 metres. Furthermore they are equipped with an acoustic device with which only direction is determined and with which warships can be detected at 20000 metres, merchant ships at 10000 metres. These latter distances are uncertain."

Although the RNethN had lost four submarines in December 1941, only one, O.20, can be attributed to Japanese destroyers. O.16 and K.XVII had both been lost to a Japanese minefield, laid off Poelau Tioman before the outbreak of hostilities (though this was not known at the time) and K.XVI had been torpedoed by the submarine I 166. Furthermore, O.20 may well have survived had her skipper not ordered "Abandon ship" but submerged.

FAdmiral · 07-25-07, 03:10 PM

Ok, with the 1.3 patch and no mods affecting the DD sensors,
here is what I have observed so far: (calm seas)

1. Running at PD, scope down, any speed, I get detected 100% of the time.
2. Running deeper, above thermal, any speed, detected about 75% of the time.
3. Running below thermal, silent routine, detected 0% of the time.

So my advice is this, if a DD is coming near you, go silent under thermal and
only come up to PD when ready to shoot. Keep scope up ONLY when shooting.
Use external view to watch the action....

JIM

PS. If "Bungo Pete" is after you, forget the above, bend over & (well, you know)

Ducimus · 07-25-07, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAdmiral

PS. If "Bungo Pete" is after you, forget the above, bend over & (well, you know)

BUahahhahah, you realize i am a proud "father" where BP is concerned?

FAdmiral · 07-25-07, 10:47 PM

YES, we know!! What we don't know is when did you change your name from
Frankinstein to Ducimus??

JIM

Jace11 · 07-26-07, 06:09 PM

TRIM YOUR BOAT DOWN....

it works... I can get with torp range of merchants on dark nights and hit them and sink them before they even spot me...

Even during daylight conditions I can close much closer to enemy units if I reduce my silhouette. Why bowl in on the surface at top speed full of air.. no wonder people are getting spotted easily..

Keep low, slow and quiet...

Also, the flooded trim tanks mean you can't move as fast but if you are spotted you can dive away real quick..

07-18-07, 11:02 PM	#47
cdrsubron7 Sink'em All Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Naperville, IL Posts: 2,150 Downloads: 305 Uploads: 1	Peto, thanks for your help and suggestions. The point of the matter is that I have tried many different angles of approach and depths ranging from PD down to 200 ft without ever having exposed the periscope. This last time I know it was the destroyer out in front who detected me. The other couple of times I came in from the points and am not sure whether one of the flanking DD picked me up or the DD out in front. I've played SH1 for the last ten years as a member of the PTC and have played SH2 and SH3 so I really don't consider myself a novice when it comes to playing SHIV. But since I've tried playing SHIV with the 1.3 I'm really feeling out of my depth. I tried every approach I can think of and I still get detected, it's getting really fustrating. cdrsubron7 __________________ Head Deep and Keep'em Astern" - LtCDR Samuel D Dealy SHIV Guide \| Imperial Japanese Navy \| US Submarines

07-18-07, 11:59 PM	#49
FAdmiral Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 1,079 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	400 feet ?? That would be crush depth for all US subs except for the latest and most recent ones. Most of the subs I have used in 42 & 43 are marked more shollow than that.... JIM __________________ If you\'re not taking losses, you\'re not doing enough. RAdm. Kelly Turner, USN ********************************** www.fairtax.org

07-25-07, 07:15 AM	#56
GerritJ9 Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 389 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 6	On Feb. 12th 1942 Vice-Admiral Helfrich, C-in-C of the Royal Netherlands navy in the NEI, sent a telegram to Vice-Admiral Furstner, Chief of the Netherlands Naval Staff in London detailing some of the Dutch experiences with IJN A/S warfare: "According to intelligence supplied by K.XV it appeared during action off Sarawak that Japanese "Amagiri" class destroyers are equipped with sound receivers and not with periphones (?) or Asdic. To track submarines several destroyers searched the area at 12 knots, stopped similtaneously, listened and then proceeded. Destroyers passing directly over the submarine on several occasions showed that they did hear something but the absence of depth charges indicated that they did not know exactly where the submarine was. Later on five depth charges were dropped at random. According to information supplied by K.XVIII the Japanese probably use sound locators and echo receivers whereby use is made of small echo-bombs which are heard as hammer blows on the pressure hull. According to received intelligence Japanese submarines are equipped with Asdic with a constant frequency of 17.5 kilocycles. Scale goes to 6000 metres though usable up to 3000 to 4000 metres. Furthermore they are equipped with an acoustic device with which only direction is determined and with which warships can be detected at 20000 metres, merchant ships at 10000 metres. These latter distances are uncertain." Although the RNethN had lost four submarines in December 1941, only one, O.20, can be attributed to Japanese destroyers. O.16 and K.XVII had both been lost to a Japanese minefield, laid off Poelau Tioman before the outbreak of hostilities (though this was not known at the time) and K.XVI had been torpedoed by the submarine I 166. Furthermore, O.20 may well have survived had her skipper not ordered "Abandon ship" but submerged. __________________ Quamvis Patiens Acris My SH3/SH4 mods: http://www.gamefront.com/files/user/GerritJ9

07-25-07, 03:10 PM	#57
FAdmiral Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 1,079 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Ok, with the 1.3 patch and no mods affecting the DD sensors, here is what I have observed so far: (calm seas) 1. Running at PD, scope down, any speed, I get detected 100% of the time. 2. Running deeper, above thermal, any speed, detected about 75% of the time. 3. Running below thermal, silent routine, detected 0% of the time. So my advice is this, if a DD is coming near you, go silent under thermal and only come up to PD when ready to shoot. Keep scope up ONLY when shooting. Use external view to watch the action.... JIM PS. If "Bungo Pete" is after you, forget the above, bend over & (well, you know) __________________ If you\'re not taking losses, you\'re not doing enough. RAdm. Kelly Turner, USN ********************************** www.fairtax.org

07-25-07, 10:47 PM	#59
FAdmiral Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 1,079 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	YES, we know!! What we don't know is when did you change your name from Frankinstein to Ducimus?? JIM __________________ If you\'re not taking losses, you\'re not doing enough. RAdm. Kelly Turner, USN ********************************** www.fairtax.org

07-18-07, 11:56 PM	#48
Peto Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The details of my life are quite inconsequential Posts: 1,049 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Considering your experience with subsims, I can definitely understand your frustration. Now that I've been playing 1.3 for quite a few hours, I tend to agree that they've beefed up the detection ranges. Hang in there! I'm sure more mods are on the way! I'll be looking at tuning down the Japanese Incredi-vision myself and trying to turn up their active sonar some to add challenge when they do find me. Cheers! Peto

07-19-07, 12:03 AM	#50
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	The mark on the depth gauge is the test depth. They could all go substantially deeper than their test depths. I think the AI capability can be tweaked, just needs some time. tater

07-19-07, 12:21 AM	#52
Peto Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The details of my life are quite inconsequential Posts: 1,049 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Yep. A few gato classes went down to 500 feet during the war. The Puffer stayed down that deep for about 27 hours in one of the worst prolonged DC attacks suffered by US boats. The attacking escort was a subchaser! The Tang (Balao) went to 700 feet--depth gauge didn't go that high so they read the outside water pressure and did the math to figure out how deep they were. Of course--in the game we tend to be a tad more limited... Wish a Test depth plus a random % could be worked out so you never knew how deep you could safely go. Cheers! Peto

07-20-07, 03:27 PM	#55
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	It's the angle at which it loses detection. There will always be a way to go around it, but it might be ahistorically shallow is all.

07-26-07, 06:09 PM	#60
Jace11 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 683 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 1	TRIM YOUR BOAT DOWN.... it works... I can get with torp range of merchants on dark nights and hit them and sink them before they even spot me... Even during daylight conditions I can close much closer to enemy units if I reduce my silhouette. Why bowl in on the surface at top speed full of air.. no wonder people are getting spotted easily.. Keep low, slow and quiet... Also, the flooded trim tanks mean you can't move as fast but if you are spotted you can dive away real quick..