My comment on the EU-treaty: World's greatest basar

Originally Posted by Hakahura

Because it's in their national interest.

Exactly!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Hakahura

Because it's in their national interest.

I called the EU negotiations a basaar, right?

BTW, what would be wrong with representing demographic facts (sizes of people) in voting powers? Consider this: Poland fires salvos of hate-attacks every couple of years, sometimes even months, at Germany. We all are still Nazis, and we try to murder them in their beds, yoh know. But they happily accept Eu fundinds and aids equal to Germany EU-payments alone (Germany the biggest financial contributor of the EU, shouldering one fourth of it's fiances). Roughly counted, there are twice as many germans, than there are Poles. So Germany contributes much more money, has much greater population - and should be have almost equal political influence in Brussels only? Germany made very far-leading compromises toweards the Poles, and concessions over the last years, again and again and again. It always is answered with even more hate-tirades, and acusation of still driving a Nazi agenda.

And siocne some of you havent red the commend, it seems, I quote it in the following again:

Poland's vote pleading is sheer hypocrisy
Anne Karpf
Saturday June 23, 2007
The Guardian



It was one of those "you couldn't make it up" days. Poland was demanding more votes in the running of the EU on the grounds that, if Germany hadn't murdered 6 million Poles, then the population would be almost double what it is today. One thing is clear: Lech and Jaroslaw Kaczynski, Poland's ultra nationalist president and prime minister respectively, have blasted "Don't mention the war" to smithereens.
Of course, it's quite understandable if Poland is still mourning its war dead, yet you can't help thinking: the nerve of those boys. Isn't there - how shall I put this Euro-politely? - a dash of audacity here? Hypocrisy even? Let's remember those 6 million dead: half of them were Jews - and the Polish record on Jews is just a mite troublesome. Those Polish Jews weren't exactly living in clover before the war, when the numerus clausus (Jewish quota) restricted their access to the professions. And when they were carted off to the camps, most of their Polish neighbours were at best indifferent, and at worst grateful.

Polish nationalism had long been nourished by anti-semitism. Although there were many Poles who exposed themselves to huge risk by hiding Jews, my own mother's experience - denounced to the Nazis by a Polish Catholic - was common, perhaps even typical.

And now the Kaczynskis are trying to airbrush away every last speck of Polish complicity in the name of more EU votes! Those same Kaczynskis who are so fervently supported by Radio Maryja, widely criticised as chief purveyor of virulent anti-semitism in Poland today. Those same Kaczynskis who are governing Poland with a coalition including the radical right League of Polish Families, as homophobic as it is anti-semitic.
One can't help but be reminded of the joke about the chap who killed both his parents and then demanded leniency from the judge because he was an orphan. In among all the web discussion about this story today, one wag proposed a compromise: give Poland the extra votes and move its boundary back to its 1938 location.

The lady is right.

And the conservative Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung wrote this, and is 100% right, as I see it:

(...)

Die Kaczynski-Brüder sehen sich nicht an frühere polnische Zusagen gebunden, und sie verfolgen unverhohlen das Ziel, Deutschland in der Union zu isolieren und zu diskreditieren. Das wird noch nicht einmal verblümt, im Gegenteil: Für jedermann wurde sichtbar, dass diese Politik gar keine weiteren Ziele verfolgt, sondern sich in diesem anachronistischen Selbstzweck erschöpft. Allenfalls die Zahlungen der Union, die ziemlich dem deutschen Beitrag entsprechen, streicht Polen gern ein, sonstige ausgezeichnete Dienste, die Deutschland freimütig geleistet hat, werden ungnädig in Anspruch genommen. Warschau sieht sich ohnehin als Deutschlands moralischen Gläubiger und die deutsche Schuld als nicht wiedergutzumachend, also praktischerweise untilgbar an.

Dass Lech Kaczynski sich auf dem Gipfel durchgesetzt zu haben glaubt, muss keine Fehleinschätzung sein. Auf Sicht hat nämlich auch Polen sich freie Hand bewahrt, seine destruktive Politik in der Union fortzusetzen - und es kann auch die Einführung des nun auf 2014, wenn nicht 2017 verschobenen Abstimmungsverfahrens der „doppelten Mehrheit“ immer noch scheitern lassen. Mit Todesdrohungen, für welche mathematischen Operationen auch immer, ist in der EU zwar auf Dauer keine Politik zu machen. Aber Verantwortungsgefühl und Konstruktivität lassen sich nicht erzwingen.



Es ist der Dämon einer anderen, vergangen geglaubten Zeit, dessen giftiger Atem da plötzlich durch die Glaspaläste des modernen Europa streicht. Und man muss sich - leider - die Frage stellen, ob die polnische Neurose nicht mehr ist als nur ein Problem der EU, nämlich ein Problem Europas. Polen hat viel gelitten, das bringt, wie früher einmal auch für Deutschland, die Versuchung mit, sich in einen Opfermythos einzuspinnen, der die Handlungsspielräume friedfertiger Politik verengt und am Ende gar eingebildete Feinde zu echten machen kann.

Gewiss muss man sich vor kollektiven Zuschreibungen hüten: Das junge, auf Westen und Wohlstand gerichtete Polen träumt die düsteren Träume, fühlt die Phantomschmerzen der Kaczynskis nicht mit. Aber die Politik der Polarisierung zieht die Menschen immer in ihren Bann - umso mehr, wenn die Zanklust sich, wie eben doch am Ende in Brüssel, als erfolgreich erweist.

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub99C3EECA60D8...~Scontent.html

Originally Posted by Skybird

I called the EU negotiations a basaar, right?

BTW, what would be wrong with representing demographic facts (sizes of people) in voting powers? Consider this: Poland fires salvos of hate-attacks every couple of years, sometimes even months, at Germany. We all are still Nazis, and we try to murder them in their beds, yoh know. But they happily accept Eu fundinds and aids equal to Germany EU-payments alone (Germany the biggest financial contributor of the EU, shouldering one fourth of it's fiances). Roughly counted, there are twice as many germans, than there are Poles. So Germany contributes much more money, has much greater population - and should be have almost equal political influence in Brussels only? Germany made very far-leading compromises toweards the Poles, and concessions over the last years, again and again and again. It always is answered with even more hate-tirades, and acusation of still driving a Nazi agenda.

And siocne some of you havent red the commend, it seems, I quote it in the following again:

The lady is right.

And the conservative Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung wrote this, and is 100% right, as I see it:

The Poles don't trust the Germans. Nor do they have any reason to trust them. The Brits don't trust you either and I think we all know about the French.

How about a one country one vote system for the EU. That way no one feels slighted and no country can impose its will on any other country. Concensus building will be the name of the game. I thought all of Europe was for concensus.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Hakahura

Hmmm Skybird

Whilst most of your original post is factual, what do you expect?

Of course Poland feels agrieved about losing some of it's voting power, who would'nt be. None of the statements made by their leader are factually incorrect are they? Just an unpleasent truth. You cannot blame Poland for feeling a sense national idenitity, after years of being mistreated at the hands of both Germany and Russia they are finally free and naturally reluctant to surrender themelves over to another form of dictatorship.

Then you say that Blair is looking out for British interests. Well about time too I say! He is (still just) the British Prime Minister. Its his job to look out for British interests. Though it is too little to late.

Not forgetting that a weak Europe has and always will be in the UK's interests.

What would you have national leaders do look out for other nations interests before their own? That sounds awfully close to treason to me.

People are naturally reluctant to have the will of others forced upon them. Thats what negotiation is for, even if it takes 100years.

Why is it necessary for the EU (I prefered the EEC) to have any of these Treatys/Constitutions/Dicatorial rules? Is it not enough to just trade with each other? As I understand thats what we were all originaly duped into joining up to.

What should Europe do? Bow to the wishes of the German/French federal power block?

Don't even get me started on the idea of a common foriegn policy.

You haven't understand me too well, I get the impression.

Germany and France were able to push their will in the club of six. It was difficult and often impossible in the club of 15. Now in the club of 27, it is impossible. It is a myth that germany tries to "Germanise" europe. As a matter of fact we painfully avoid to cause that impression, for not being seen as the hostile Hun again. Our parlimant allows our laws and constitutional rules being overruled by the EU - not the other way around. No other nation pays more into the EU than Germany. Which means: where that much money is coming from, you can get some more - by making the person in question feeling guilty and agreeing to compensate more. And more. And more. Hell, the war was TWO GENERATIONS in the past. There are not that much friends of Hitler in the Bundestag anymore. we get almost talked into a neurosis of how bad it is to be a German -in the present.

as the Polish example shows, aggression, lacking sense for cooperation and constructive intentions, the determination to let all others fail, pays off. the EU rewarded it, had not the guts to - finally - tell them that europe cannot afford to wait for the Poles to arrive in the 21 century, and putting everything in ruins others try to build. Lesson learned is this: let'S do it again, we get away with it, we get our reward. So, expect this kind of behavior even more often at the EU now, from Poland, and others as well. Compüromise is good. Always. Ever. Eternally. At all costs.

In the starting posting I said that the "agreement", the "compromise", the exclusion of the people, does not illustrate the democratic nature, the sense of cooperation and the sophisticated level of the EU. we saw ruthlessness, and brutality, to a degree that most observers and many politi9ci9ans at home said they had never seen before during all the EU's history of 50 years. This is no unity. And when Merkel finally tried the last tool available to her after the Poles AGAIN had sabotated the agreement on compromises they just had agreed to an hour before (the one twin said yes, and from the distance the other was yelling No!!!! ) - several other nations fell into her back, althoiugh the compromises already were way too farleading.

If "compromise at all costs", no matter how high they are, is the motto, then do not expect that bstrength will result from this. The summit showed egoism, determination for destruction of a degree previpously unknown in EU policies, and weakness. Really, I cannot say I am impressed. Not at all. a union, an alliance is soemthing diffrent. It seems some european nations think that some european nations are the greatest rivals and even enemies in the world. tjhat way, the EU will fail in surviving the rivalry with the US, China, India, Asia, South America.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Hakahura

Not forgetting that a weak Europe has and always will be in the UK's interests.

I say that myself, and often. but it leaves me shaking my head that the rest of Europe does not leave Britain behind, then. You try , and you try again, and again. But trying eternally...?

I am so angry about the content of the treaty, because Brussels can seize more never democratiucally legitimated power by it. I am angry for claiming to do it int nhe name of the people, why the people got locked out. But if I would ignroe that for a while and instead stick with what the EU wants to be - i again must become angry, for the EU is so destructive, self-damaging, naive, and single nations willingly accept to destroy the main effort of "all" just for their own little agendas. That is not the meaning and sense of an alliance. and what is it with British interests? The thing with the legality of the charta, and Britain not signing that for it has no constitution, this at leat I copuld understand. but opposing a foreign ministre - but accepting a foreign ministre who is a foreign minsiutre but is not named like that? That is unreasonable, a pleasing of the crowd at home. And the British were not the last to insist on the constitution being renamed into a treaty - so that they can excldue their own people from deciding on it in form of a referendum, making sure that it will become a fact. A fact that is about a europe that they do not want.

All that together is a contradiction (1) within a contradiction (2) within a contradiction (3). One must wonder if anyone knows anymore what he originally wanted.

It's a basaar of greeds and vanities, grounded on lies and blackmailings. it's all so sick, and degenerated and corrupt, and worst of all: so hopeless.

I agree with Ronald Reagan who once expressed that only an enemy from the outside who threatens to wipe us out maybe will lead the people of West and East and the world to cooperate and work together.

Maybe 60 years of peace is more than man can bear.

[Lurchi]

The current events show that Germany will never be liked by its neighbours. History will always be used against us and the policy to financially contribute into international organizations in order to "buy" friendship has failed.

This isn't a big problem - we must understand that there is no friendship between nations anyway, only between people. If the Kaczynskis help us to understand this then i am thankful for them.

In my opinion this wonderful country, which was rebuilt from total destruction by its hardworking people (and -of course- help from outside) should cut back the money it (overproportionally) pays into the EU and UNO and should spend it for getting its military back into shape - if necessary with the inclusion of nuclear weapons. Who cares if someone trust us as long as they respect us.

If Poland votes for leaders who spit on us then we germans have every right to vote for a leader not willing to accept this.
A closer cooperation with russia should also be helpful in this matter .

[Skybird]

I want to reiterate again - like i already said earlier - that my anger, when talking of "Poland", is with the twins, and the coalition parties, and the camp of the ultraconservative and nationalistic political faction in Poland. This counts for maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the whole population, so my impression, and that is what several Polish journalists on Germnn TV inrecent weeks also were indicating. Which means that the majority of Poles probably does not share the official Polish hostility towards Germany. On level of private relations between citizens from both countries, i think the majority of interhuman experiences is positive.

I certainly would help if the moderate majority would try more to prevent leaving the Polish policies to the extremists.

Wait - where have I heared that phrasing before...

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Skybird

but maybe that is the wanted effect? so that people on the street cannot understand what they are expected to celebrate. There will be no foreign minster, but a new foreign policy office with a posy title. The charta does not get mentioned anymore, but is referred to as nevertheless being legally binding. Several complications come from this, that will allow Brussels under the umbrella of these basic laws being binding to overrule national parliaments (the expressed will of the national voters) and national constitutions, that way accumulating More and more power in the hands of a bureaucratic structure that internally decides over it's form and personnel and never finds a democratic legitimation by the people of europe.

Similarly: Goodbye to all that, Britain included.