Personal statement !

[vasmann]

Originally Posted by Dowly

When you spend ~2yrs of your free time to make 'just a mod', you tend to get a bit emotional over it.

And another thing that I'm ticked off is that first we got huge support from the community, but now people are trying to make us the bad guy and stab us in the back whenever they can.

That's the problem. People take they want for free, and nothing pay for this (I don't mean money, simple thank you or notify in readme is great). People (not all) don't honor other's work and don't know what does it cost to other to make it, it just takes ready stuff - that he couldn't make himself, changes some minor thing and sais It is mine work. This is not correct and amoral. As for me like mod's user - I always read readme and interested how much people worked on mod. And always I can say "thank you guys for a great work", even if it takes 1kb on HDD :-))

[joea]

Jcwolf, I have enjoyed your and your fellow modder's work and am really sorry to see you go! Please reconsider hate to see the good guys go away.

[Reece]

Don't take it to heart Mr Wolf, the majority of people here have very good morals, the nasties are a minority, we certainly don't want to see the good ones, like yourself, to leave or SS could possably take a dive for the worse!

NVDRIFTER recently left this community, he's a great guy like REECE and JCWOLF.

Gosh Uber .... I think ... I think ... I'm gonna cry!! Sniff Sniff!!
Now Mr Wolf, back to modding, If you have SHIV but love SHIII we could certainly use your help/opinions etc here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=114596&page=2
I think this could be something really great, but have come accross a few problems already.

[JCWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitman

JCwolf,

I can understand well a part of your feelings. But I think it is a fair point to say that subsim forums are not intended be used as a plagiarism prosecutor. This is your home, same as many people's, but it is not a court. You will receive support and encouragement as well as recognizement from the community if your mods get stolen and/or copied, but pretending that the subsim staff gets officially involved in continuous prosecution of cheat-modders is not reasonable. And besides, a guy can have a nick here and behave properly while having another nick elsewhere and go around copying things and offering them in other communities. What would be the next step? Should then Neal Stevens ask personally the webmasters or moderators of those webs to shut the guy because he is copying a mod by a subsim member? What if they are then included by someone a la X1 in a commercial DVD? Does Neal then go and sue them in the real courts?

One thing must be very clear to you: The fact that subsim host these forums and appreciates your work and the work from many modders does not mean it shall get officially and permanently involved in prosecution or punishment of such actions, nor does it mean doing so is letting you down. The community has a gratitude debt with you and the GWX team, same as with many other modders. But Subsim.com is not in debt with you or the GWX team personally, instead it is quite the opposite. We all are in debt with subsim.com for hosting these forums and providing such a blossoming environment for us all, at a cost that exceeds hundreds of dollars a month and much more hundreds of hours of Neal's spare time.

Subsim.com has no obligation to enforce modder's ethic codes, and no one shall feel let down not to receive such support from subsim.com. Period.

Stay here, we all apreciate your work.

I understand your point of view Hitman,
but let me clear what real troubles me,

I know that SS and is work group can't
go or lead pssible "Tomb Raiders" suposed
modders or fiction ones to court, and thats not
what I have ment when said what I posted,
I really ment that this is a forum were, like other
users in here say, is used by loads of all over
the world users, ok everyone understands that,
but What about SS protecting the users that
really make this forum work and develop into
the huge recognition that really haves today...

Brother, if you have a guy at your company (example)
that is releasing a new concept Tool or what ever
would you not protect that release and attack or
defend it against possible" Tomb Raiders" that would
copy it and by introducing some slight changes
release it again elsewere as their own work???:hmm:

I would!

This is what I have ment, I think SS as to get wet some
times and defend the truthfull creator Ingenuity and
the guy that creats something from scratch or from the
original SH files, not from others hard work and mostly
without even ask to do it, we no its free, but that
is certanly not the right excuse to Hijack it and
certanly not the excuse to rename it and repost it
elsewere as a new work!!!

I know you ment well with your post, and generaly
I have not even a single complain about the SS
stuff members or Neal or this forum...

But someone haves to remind everyone here about
the lost of genuine work protection and about some
forgoten moral that makes us follow the real goal
here, that is creat Mods and make this place more
and more unique as it is , this is the time to decide
if we will fight against the commom opportunity
seacker that only comes here to spread desagreement
and doesn't really brings nothing new then forum
argueing and division...

Thanks for the words Hitman, you're a truthful gent.!

Originally Posted by Uber Gruber

Honesty......mmmmmMMM...okay, whats all the fuss about ? Mods are great, they really enhance the overall game, and in the case of SHIV actually fix the bloody thing. But a mod is a mod, its a modification that modifies or improves something. The author of the mod should surely get the credit they deserve but lets not get too emotional about it....its just a mod for a game. It has a certain shelf life. Sure some people are bound to use it withough knowing who wrote it, some people are bound to nick bits of it and use it in a new mod, some people will enhance it, some people will moan that it breaks their game. Who cares really ? When its first release to the community the author will get the credit they deserve from notable members of the community, after that its a bit of a free for all because thats the nature of the beast i'm afraid.

Seriously, I really can't understand the level of emotion attached to these mods, they're not living entities. If I produce a mod I do so because something annoys me and needs modding. If I release it to a community then I do so knowing that it will eventually get diluted and flushed down the toilet. I don't need any recognition, if you like it then use it, if not then dont.

I'm sure i'm gonna get flamed here but you asked for honesty and thats exactly what i'm doing. NVDRIFTER recently left this community, he's a great guy like REECE and JCWOLF. His concern was the nature of recent posts in this community. Sure some people's posts are, well, crap and inflamatory, but they're just the dribblings of faceless people. Just chose to ignore them. Any long term community member can easily recognise who are worthy posters and who are not, just filter the trash out.

Again, i'm sorry if i'm being a bit blunt here but this is a simple subsim community and thats all, its not some embodyment of fundamental democratic processes. Its a community of people from all walks of life whoc are interested in subs, who like to play sub games and thats about the size of it.

Less emotion and more modding please.

I ask everybody here to not make of this thread a insult playground,
I know you mean well mate, and I'm preaty sure you will not be flamed
just cause you have speacked your thoughts or mind,

But this is not a state, I mean like California, Texas, a state,
this is a forum, and in any forum, you have to go by his own
rules or guide lines, I was getting to a sensation here that
there was none, due to what happend recently with some
threads, opened by some of the most respected and hard
working guys this community ever had, jus to pin point some facts
and others to pin point some injustices that were flying
on our place ...

You nust bellieve in something in order to fight and defend it,
As I did in my past , in other things and situations I felt
this as to be defended also...
I know every time a new Sim from SH comes out a wave
of incomming new guys pop in the forum and I think
it is healthy that this happend, what I do not agree
and for sure will fight against is that "we" allow
some "Punk" actitude and bad behavior against the
allready here ones...

I do not want to descourage new blood modders,
but I want these guys to understand the road
they are choosing to go and if I can help them
on that road I will, but also I am a huge fun of
everi single modder that is here for a load of
time working and sharing is good will with us
and I think we have the right to protect them all...

I guess this is a matter of hart or not,
I am what I am, and I think respect and loyalty
are very important things as long they are
understood!

[Jimbuna]

What a bloody awful sad day for this community.

How have we ended up where we are now?

Could it be because all manners and respect here have been allowed to slide slowly to an intolerable level?

What has become of the unwritten ethics code around plagiarising others work and verbally abusing them in public?

It is fast becoming 'custom and practice' that someone can rape a mod and feel oblivious to any accountability for their actions.

How can it be that on two separate posts a GWX member can be threatened with a physical assault and there is no intervention by those empowered to do so?

So many have been gifted as a result of some excellent mods yet so many sit idly by and quietly witness what just a few people here seem determined to destroy.

I have always rated this forum...so much so that I'm proud to say I've made donations on several occasions.
What Neal has done for this community is immeasurable and long may it continue.

Sadly....(and I base my comments knowing full well they may be perceived as being subjective)....this is no longer the friendly forum it was.

As a SS forum member, UK law enforcement officer, moderator at the Grey Wolves Den and server admin on the GWX Crew TS server I feel qualified and justified in posting these questions/comments in the fervent wish that a solution equitable and acceptable to all can be found.

Wolves are pack animals normally....one looks like leaving....I'd hate to see the rest of the pack move to a warmer climate....never to return.

@JC
See you over at The Den kaleun

(this post was written in an entirely personal capacity)

[GT182]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

What a bloody awful sad day for this community.

How have we ended up where we are now?

Could it be because all manners and respect here have been allowed to slide slowly to an intolerable level?

What has become of the unwritten ethics code around plagiarising others work and verbally abusing them in public?

It is fast becoming 'custom and practice' that someone can rape a mod and feel oblivious to any accountability for their actions.

How can it be that on two separate posts a GWX member can be threatened with a physical assault and there is no intervention by those empowered to do so?

You've hit the proverbial nail on the head Jim. It's real life flowing over to the computer gaming world. They do it everyday on the streets and at home.... no respect anymore for others. They don't have to follow any laws but do what they want with impunity. They take what they want when they want it and figure no one will stop them or say anything. The last on being threatened is the 3rd time. A former member received death threats by phone. I was witness to that myself.

This past Friday I watched a hit and run in a parking lot. I DID get all the info..... plate # and name on the company vehicle, and the persons description. We even stayed to tell the person the that owned the damaged vehicle what happened. The idiot that did this denied every bit of it according to the State Police. I was asked what the person looked like and age.... I hit it as close as possible without a picture. Was asked if I'd come in an identify the person and said sure. I've heard nothing so far so I figure that person finally came clean and admitted their guilt. Now they're probably out of a job for something that stupid. That's what this world it coming too, and it's showing up on the internet and here.

[HunterICX]

when I joined this Board a year ago,

I was suprised about the athmosphere, calm and peacefull to be honest.

now because of some mods made SH3 very popular more people hopped in and with the release of SHIV Subsim.com became even bigger.

but it also changed the athmosphere to be honest, especialy since the last releases of Mods for SH3.

Competition between Modding teams is GOOD , as it can push both teams further in developing and discovering things they never seen before, and releases it in a supermod and give it away free to download. to be honest without these spended efforst SH3 wouldnt have grown this big as it is right now. Now I been here just for a Year, and I'm amazed what people have done to work on mayor projects that are mindblowing.

It came to me to notice that besides Modding teams releasing their projects , there is also politics involved. if it civil, I dont mind it is healthy , but when its just plain rude dumb comments, back stabbing and draging mods throught the MUD is just PLAIN RUDE. I dont actually understand the fact ''Why'' do they say such thing.
those comments can do enough that Modders throw their caps on the ground and say ''I've had it I leave'' and sometimes it can be a big loss.

something we all must remember its FREE, yes, the only thing in return is that you respect the hard work as it can be a YEAR of hard work, if you just drag it into the Mud by posting it on a message board because you dont like it and that its for example UNREALISTIC and dont tell WHY it is, sorry dude. if you just deleted it. nobody get hurt. as nobody forces you to download it. you are a free man(oops females too) you can whatever you like with mods and your SH3 game.

Subsim has grown big, the more the merrier I say as long it stays civil and fun.

just my thoughts

HunterICX

[ReM]

What has become of this place?

A couple of years ago when I 'discovered' Subsim this was a nice cozy place where you were welcomed and where people treated each other with respect.

Whenever there was a subject you wanted to discuss, helpfulness from other community members is the first word that pops up.

There were some rippels now and then, but these were exceptions

There was also a lot of modding going on....the modders were held in high esteem and generally people were very grateful of their work.

It felt like what I would call a 'community'; on several occasions I stated that being a part of the Subsim community was good; better than on any other forum.....I love being there.

These days seem long gone:

respect is no longer the norm here, escpecially at the SH IV forums were people are treated like criminals if they dare to ask something that was asked weeks before. Friendliness is almst non-existent.
Maybe it has to do with frustrations over the half-finished UBI 'game''.

Snaring and growling can be found at any page.

Even the modders that made good 'ol SHIII the game it should have been (GWX)are now being attacked and being made to feel like they need to defend themselves, even to a point that some feel the need to leave subsimming altogether.....

Some people that are jealous af the deserved credit they get now start flaming that all their work was stolen...

Maybe this place shouLd get back to the basics of a community, a civilised place where respect and helpfulness are the norm.....

It was like that before, but I fear those days are gone forever!

Salute JCWolf and thanks for all you contributions!

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Reece

Don't take it to heart Mr Wolf, the majority of people here have very good morals, the nasties are a minority, we certainly don't want to see the good ones, like yourself, to leave or SS could possibly take a dive for the worse!

That's true...
Now, what I'm going to say is simple : you have your own conception (and I've the same) of the SubSim community, something like "We're all here to help each other at modding something/supporting other SS members who have to face problems in real life", just as a "Band of Brothers".

In fact, what KL has said is true :

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

I think you wear that sig because you have experienced a spirit of "crew" that cannot be built. It either happens... or it does not happen.

Understanding that spirit of "crew" means that some days your brother helps you stand up... and some days you help him stand up.

Let them hurl their insults and scorn. Let them come. Let them do their worst. Things will change for the better because we will make them change.

JC, if you want to keep alive this way of thinking/living among us, it's definitelyin your hands...

A friend is a person you know well and regard with affection and trust... And the difference between a true and a false friend, is that a real one can stay with us in a moment of grief. True friends make all the difference in the world.
Now, I think I've said all I want to say, and you have for sure the freedom to do what you want, but I think leaving us now is to go against your friendship principles.

Very respectfully yours,

Alex

[CaptainCox]

I have been reading this thread all day...As a "new" modder here, mainly SH4 am I one of the ppl that is causing this ?... or is it something I missed...I know there was tension between Beery and the GWX team, then we had Nvdrifter getting peed off etc, but is there more to this...Sorry, but i don't read all the threads here, even if i try.

If I personally have done something (that i am not aware of) I am truly sorry.
I am wondering as there is alot of talk about the "new" peeps doing SH4 mods.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by CaptainCox

I have been reading this thread all day...As a "new" modder here, mainly SH4 am I one of the ppl that is causing this ?... or is it something I missed...I know there was tension between Beery and the GWX team, then we had Nvdrifter getting peed off etc, but is there more to this...Sorry, but i don't read all the threads here, even if i try.

If I personally have done something (that i am not aware of) I am truly sorry.
I am wondering as there is alot of talk about the "new" peeps doing SH4 mods.

I hope not Captain Cox, because you and some other new members that are working with SH4 are doing a hell of a job. I have seen the threads, you have been nothing but classy in my opinion I hope a few bad apples don't cause all of SH4 modders to be painted with the same brush.

Just my thoughts.

RDP

[Jimbuna]

Whenever there was a subject you wanted to discuss, helpfulness from other community members is the first word that pops up.

....and non more so than that given by the GWX Crew

There was also a lot of modding going on....the modders were held in high esteem and generally people were very grateful of their work.

Very true.

It felt like what I would call a 'community'; on several occasions I stated that being a part of the Subsim community was good; better than on any other forum.....I love being there.

My sentiments entirely.

These days seem long gone:

respect is no longer the norm here, escpecially at the SH IV forums were people are treated like criminals if they dare to ask something that was asked weeks before. Friendliness is almst non-existent.

Looks like the infection could be spreading.

Even the modders that made good 'ol SHIII the game it should have been (GWX)are now being attacked and being made to feel like they need to defend themselves, even to a point that some feel the need to leave subsimming altogether.....

Sad....but true.

Some people that are jealous af the deserved credit they get now start flaming that all their work was stolen...

Precisely!!

Maybe this place shouLd get back to the basics of a community, a civilised place where respect and helpfulness are the norm.....

Yes please.

It was like that before, but I fear those days are gone forever!

Let's hope that is not the case.

[danlisa]

Originally Posted by ReM

What has become of this place?

A couple of years ago when I 'discovered' Subsim this was a nice cozy place where you were welcomed and where people treated each other with respect.

Whenever there was a subject you wanted to discuss, helpfulness from other community members is the first word that pops up.

There were some rippels now and then, but these were exceptions.....SNIP......Some people that are jealous af the deserved credit they get now start flaming that all their work was stolen...

Maybe this place shouLd get back to the basics of a community, a civilised place where respect and helpfulness are the norm.....

It was like that before, but I fear those days are gone forever!

Salute JCWolf and thanks for all you contributions!

@ REM

I agree with you entirely and I'm sorry for sniping your post in my quote, just wanted to keep the size down.

I think alot of this stems from the infux of many new members to Subsim which is entirely attributed to SH4. It's to be expected, Sub Sims have been made more 'mainstream' with thier 'hollywood' graphics & I feel that many may have come from other game forums where the norm is completely different to what we have come to expect from Subsim. This contributes to the problem but it certainly is not the only reason we are seeing this type of behaviour.

The SH3 side of Subsim is considerably more friendy and welcoming (IMHO) than the SH4 side but I think the reason we are noticing more attacking or rude posts is due to the drop in traffic. I'm not saying that SH3 has become less attractive or popular but we must admit that there are less new developments/threads being created and as such, attacks/gripes & rudeness is becoming more apparent. Not too long ago, if you took a weekend away from the SH3 Mods Forum, you had to goto page 3 or 4 before you could catch up where you left off.

This, in part, is why many of us find ourselves on the defensive alot of the time. Speaking for what I know, GWX is a HUGE target, mainly due to it's popularity, which in turn means most of the posts you find are GWX related in some way & many people feel that GWX has called 'Monopoly' on the SH3 boards because of this. Now, this can't be blamed on the devs, however they are the easiest targets & as such the flak will come thier way. It doesn't matter, they have broad shoulders after the last couple of years.

There is no-one here, on Subsim, that will deny anyone their voice or opinion but what is totally unacceptable is the manner in which those opinions are put forward. There is no reasonable excuse for being anything other than respectful & polite to any other member, especially when you are wanting to discuss issues with their hard work. We must ALL remember, this is written word and as such no inflection/tone of voice is portrayed in our responses. Before posting, re-read what you have written.

Finally, I feel that Subsim will return to the place we all love to be but in the meantime we must endure the gripes and slander but rest assured, they will not go unanswered.

Forecast - More of the same, with some bright patches. Looking to the future, it's all the way.

@ JcWolf - I blame you for all this 'thinking' I'm having to do.:rotfl:See you on the Den.

[AVGWarhawk]

We must ALL remember, this is written word and as such no inflection/tone of voice is portrayed in our responses. Before posting, re-read what you have written.

You are correct sir in every way, shape and form!

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by danlisa

The SH3 side of Subsim is considerably more friendy and welcoming (IMHO) than the SH4 side but I think the reason we are noticing more attacking or rude posts is due to the drop in traffic.

Give it some time danlisa, this will change. But forget about SH4 for a second, there will always be new naval games\sims that come out, thus attracting new members to this site
( many good, some bone-heads to ), we can either learn to deal with it in a constructive way or not. I am not a big fan of the not.

Sad thing is is that even before SH4 came out, many were panning it, saying they were not going to play because it was a Pacific Sim, funny since it was SH1 ( a Pacific Sim ) that got alot of this started.

For the record, I have said this many times, GWX is superb, I will continue to play it along with SH4 I am sure, well into the future

RDP