Patrol Impressions: Career Disappointment

rdtwendt · 05-07-07, 09:55 PM

I've been working on a few SH4 careers over the last several weeks, and have a couple of issues I need to discuss with the good folks here.

First, I want to express my gratitude that a game like this even exists. The development team did a great job overall and I'm looking forward to an even more polished product with future patches.

Having said that, I'm getting a bit burned out on the careers I've played. The escorts and destroyers are almost completely ineffective, to the extent that I don't even worry about noise generation or speed at PD while shooting my way through a virtually defenseless convoy. No active sonar, no depth charges...nothing. Just search lights and idle engines. I've observed this seemingly everywhere my orders take me; in the middle of the pacific, off the coast of Japan trailing a merchant convoy, and deep inside a Japansese harbor ambushing a dock yard. Nothing ever threatens me, save the coastal guns while travelling on the surface at night. For a "realistic" subsim, this is unacceptable.

Additionally, I've had missions repeated several times to the point where I wonder if this is a bug. I've been sent to the same area 3 times in a row in one stretch, for exactly the same mission.

I'm concerned about awards too. I just finished my first mission on a brand new campaign out of Pearl in 1941. The realism is at 100%. My boat, the USS Triton, sank over 103k of warships and merchants alike, including 2 Japanese BB's, a fleet carrier, and assorted medium and small merchants. Did we receive the CMOH? Nope. Just a lesser medal that certainly didn't suit the patrol's results.

I'm sure some of these issues have been discuessed before, and if so, I apologize for repeating them. I needed to vent some frustration though, and this seemed like the right place to do it.

All comments, suggestions, and opinions are appreciated.

Ducimus · 05-07-07, 10:00 PM

>>The escorts and destroyers are almost completely ineffective

Fixed.

>>Additionally, I've had missions repeated several times

Fixed.

rdtwendt · 05-07-07, 10:05 PM

A little more help would be useful. Are you referring to your mod pack?

SteamWake · 05-07-07, 10:07 PM

I keep hearing these reports of brain dead escorts.

Ive seen one or two but on the most part there pretty sharp at least to me.

Maybe I just suck.

Im pretty sure Dom is referring to the mods. Check the modding forum. Oh dont forget to patch up too ')

Ducimus · 05-07-07, 10:09 PM

Mods man, mods!

Check out this thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108964

Lots of mods to choose from. Alternatly you can d/l and use my mod pack (link in sig), or Berrys modpack (linked in above linked thread).

NefariousKoel · 05-07-07, 10:18 PM

I never had escorts do anything either. They would sail right up to and over me and I never ever heard a sonar ping much less a DC dropped in anger.

There are a few mods that adjust the escort AI. The first time I experienced sonar pings and got depth charged was with Kakemann's escort mod. There are two flavors of it.. normal and hard to choose from. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113489

It only fixes the escorts and isn't a whole mod pack which helps with the large amount of other mods I have enabled in JSGME.

EMAPhil · 05-09-07, 02:36 PM

I'm surprised about the comments on useless escorts.
I have been shelled rammed and D/Cd by convoy escorts, sonar tracked and just tonight hunted by a pack of three after I had the temerity to sink one on a ramming run.

This is patch 2 unmodded played on normal. I almost wish I had your problems, I auto fire torpedos for now while I work on tactics. Never get time to set up a manual kill!!!

Phil

AVGWarhawk · 05-09-07, 02:57 PM

Me too Phil, I get a mixed bag of excorts. Some are pretty good and others are just aweful. My game is unmodded.

heartc · 05-09-07, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMAPhil

I'm surprised about the comments on useless escorts.
I have been shelled rammed and D/Cd by convoy escorts, sonar tracked and just tonight hunted by a pack of three after I had the temerity to sink one on a ramming run.

This is patch 2 unmodded played on normal. I almost wish I had your problems, I auto fire torpedos for now while I work on tactics. Never get time to set up a manual kill!!!

Phil

This is not the first time I've heard something like this, and reading comments like these leaves me totally confused, because I'm one of those who experienced pretty dumb escorts kind of like, uhm, every time. So bad that when this would be the real world, that behaviour would go far beyond lack of crew experience and could only be explained with having downright mentally challenged / retarded people aboard those destroyers. Once I had the impression that one destroyer spotted my scope from pretty far out and came for me, but then he lost me again and continued sailing around lazily without seeming to have any idea of what to do next.

I'm now using Kakemann's Improved Escorts mod which helps a lot, and I'm sure Ducimus' Flavored to Taste mod is pretty much along the same lines as far as escort effectiveness is concerned. At this point, a Thanks to you guys!

But reading those occasional totally opposite comments from people who seem to use the stock version of the game makes me wonder if UBI didn't ship two different kind of batches. No sarcasm here, cause they indeed managed to do exactly that with the "Flaming Cliffs" Add-On for "Lock On - Modern Air Combat", where part of the *shipped* and *sold* Add-On DVDs were totally screwed and wouldn't even install properly. People could send them back and got re-issued a new one once this became known and acknowledged, but nonetheless, it happened, and it makes me wonder if not something along the same lines might have happened with SHIV.

On the other hand, which I hope is closer to the truth: What year are you in, Phil, when you experience those tougher escorts? Is it early, mid or late war? Cause some people suggested that while the escorts seem extraordinary dumb in early war, they become better later on.

Bilge_Rat · 05-09-07, 03:15 PM

I am still playing with the stock AI, (although I am slowly integrating other mods) and they range in effectiveness from drunken circus clowns to Bungo Pete's little brother, so there is challenge even in the stock game.

If you want a real challenge however, you could install Kakemann's ELITE AI mod and Ducimus's "Bungo Pete", they should keep you on your toes.

heartc · 05-09-07, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

If you want a real challenge however, you could install Kakemann's ELITE AI mod and Ducimus's "Bungo Pete", they should keep you on your toes.

Yeah, but as far as I know, Ducimus' "Bungo Pete" seperate mod only installs a single elite, highly sensitive sensors equipped destroyer escort in the Bungo Straits - "Bungo Pete". If you want an overall improved (including the Bungo Pete guy) destroyer AI made by Ducimus you need to install his Flavored to Taste mod. Or did you mean installing both together (Kakemann's and Ducimus Bungo Pete)? I think they are both modifying the same files, which might lead to cancelling each other out depending on the sequence you install them. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Bilge_Rat · 05-09-07, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heartc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

If you want a real challenge however, you could install Kakemann's ELITE AI mod and Ducimus's "Bungo Pete", they should keep you on your toes.

Yeah, but as far as I know, Ducimus' "Bungo Pete" seperate mod only installs a single elite, highly sensitive sensors equipped destroyer escort in the Bungo Straits - "Bungo Pete". If you want an overall improved (including the Bungo Pete guy) destroyer AI made by Ducimus you need to install his Flavored to Taste mod. Or did you mean installing both together (Kakemann's and Ducimus Bungo Pete)? I think they are both modifying the same files, which might lead to cancelling each other out depending on the sequence you install them. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That was more of a joke comment since currently they seem to include the deadliest AIs in the game. Ducimus released "Bungo Pete" as a separate mod also, I have not looked too closely, but the two mods dont appear to be incompatible.

Which version of Kakemenn's mod are you using? bumping up the AI is the next mod I want to try out.

Ducimus · 05-09-07, 03:57 PM

The bugo pete stand alone:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114033

Is compatiable with any mod that doesnt alter the harbor traffic mis file. He only appears in the bungo straights, although you can place him in a single mission if you wanted to.

Needless to say, its already incorporated into FTT, which includes AI improvements. Even with stock AI though, this guys a bear.

zylark · 05-09-07, 05:23 PM

Running FTT, I find escorts a mixed blessing. If I'm careful, they won't have a clue, if I slip up, they're all over me. I might be wrong, but isn't that how it is supposed to be?

That said, they could be a tad more aggressive. Unless I'm in rather shallow waters, I don't feel all that threatened. But then again, I am of the careful type. Go deep, wait for escort screen to pass, float up, pop the mirror, fire a volley, go deep and change position. Haven't failed me yet. And even saves me from the seldom but still happening boomerang fishes.

Ducimus · 05-09-07, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zylark

Running FTT, I find escorts a mixed blessing. If I'm careful, they won't have a clue, if I slip up, they're all over me.

Thats the general idea. Although if your careful all the time (which i am as well), things can get dull. I have been contemplating making the hydrophones more sensitive. But I'm afraid of making things too difficult for evasion. On the other hand, thats what thermal layers are for, but therein again, if the layers are too good, things become trivial, and were back to dull again.

05-07-07, 09:55 PM	#1
rdtwendt Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Urbana, IL Posts: 11 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Patrol Impressions: Career Disappointment I've been working on a few SH4 careers over the last several weeks, and have a couple of issues I need to discuss with the good folks here. First, I want to express my gratitude that a game like this even exists. The development team did a great job overall and I'm looking forward to an even more polished product with future patches. Having said that, I'm getting a bit burned out on the careers I've played. The escorts and destroyers are almost completely ineffective, to the extent that I don't even worry about noise generation or speed at PD while shooting my way through a virtually defenseless convoy. No active sonar, no depth charges...nothing. Just search lights and idle engines. I've observed this seemingly everywhere my orders take me; in the middle of the pacific, off the coast of Japan trailing a merchant convoy, and deep inside a Japansese harbor ambushing a dock yard. Nothing ever threatens me, save the coastal guns while travelling on the surface at night. For a "realistic" subsim, this is unacceptable. Additionally, I've had missions repeated several times to the point where I wonder if this is a bug. I've been sent to the same area 3 times in a row in one stretch, for exactly the same mission. I'm concerned about awards too. I just finished my first mission on a brand new campaign out of Pearl in 1941. The realism is at 100%. My boat, the USS Triton, sank over 103k of warships and merchants alike, including 2 Japanese BB's, a fleet carrier, and assorted medium and small merchants. Did we receive the CMOH? Nope. Just a lesser medal that certainly didn't suit the patrol's results. I'm sure some of these issues have been discuessed before, and if so, I apologize for repeating them. I needed to vent some frustration though, and this seemed like the right place to do it. All comments, suggestions, and opinions are appreciated.

05-07-07, 10:18 PM	#6
NefariousKoel Ace of the Deep Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: No-good Missouri scum Posts: 1,223 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I never had escorts do anything either. They would sail right up to and over me and I never ever heard a sonar ping much less a DC dropped in anger. There are a few mods that adjust the escort AI. The first time I experienced sonar pings and got depth charged was with Kakemann's escort mod. There are two flavors of it.. normal and hard to choose from. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113489 It only fixes the escorts and isn't a whole mod pack which helps with the large amount of other mods I have enabled in JSGME. __________________ "When Gary told me he had found Jesus, I thought, Yahoo! We're rich! But it turned out to be something different." - Jack Handey

05-09-07, 02:57 PM	#8
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,253 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Me too Phil, I get a mixed bag of excorts. Some are pretty good and others are just aweful. My game is unmodded. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

05-07-07, 10:00 PM	#2
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	>>The escorts and destroyers are almost completely ineffective Fixed. >>Additionally, I've had missions repeated several times Fixed.

05-07-07, 10:05 PM	#3
rdtwendt Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Urbana, IL Posts: 11 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	A little more help would be useful. Are you referring to your mod pack?

05-07-07, 10:07 PM	#4
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I keep hearing these reports of brain dead escorts. Ive seen one or two but on the most part there pretty sharp at least to me. Maybe I just suck. Im pretty sure Dom is referring to the mods. Check the modding forum. Oh dont forget to patch up too ')

05-07-07, 10:09 PM	#5
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Mods man, mods! Check out this thread: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108964 Lots of mods to choose from. Alternatly you can d/l and use my mod pack (link in sig), or Berrys modpack (linked in above linked thread).

05-09-07, 02:36 PM	#7
EMAPhil Swabbie Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Derby UK Posts: 13 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I'm surprised about the comments on useless escorts. I have been shelled rammed and D/Cd by convoy escorts, sonar tracked and just tonight hunted by a pack of three after I had the temerity to sink one on a ramming run. This is patch 2 unmodded played on normal. I almost wish I had your problems, I auto fire torpedos for now while I work on tactics. Never get time to set up a manual kill!!! Phil

05-09-07, 03:15 PM	#10
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,855 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	I am still playing with the stock AI, (although I am slowly integrating other mods) and they range in effectiveness from drunken circus clowns to Bungo Pete's little brother, so there is challenge even in the stock game. If you want a real challenge however, you could install Kakemann's ELITE AI mod and Ducimus's "Bungo Pete", they should keep you on your toes.

05-09-07, 03:57 PM	#13
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	The bugo pete stand alone: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114033 Is compatiable with any mod that doesnt alter the harbor traffic mis file. He only appears in the bungo straights, although you can place him in a single mission if you wanted to. Needless to say, its already incorporated into FTT, which includes AI improvements. Even with stock AI though, this guys a bear.

05-09-07, 05:23 PM	#14
zylark Loader Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Norway Posts: 84 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Running FTT, I find escorts a mixed blessing. If I'm careful, they won't have a clue, if I slip up, they're all over me. I might be wrong, but isn't that how it is supposed to be? That said, they could be a tad more aggressive. Unless I'm in rather shallow waters, I don't feel all that threatened. But then again, I am of the careful type. Go deep, wait for escort screen to pass, float up, pop the mirror, fire a volley, go deep and change position. Haven't failed me yet. And even saves me from the seldom but still happening boomerang fishes.