TDC vs Position Keeper discussion

[tater]

I'm switching to manual tragetting now that the TDC is reasonably fixed. With all the CTDs, etc, it didn't make sense to waste limited time with solutions only on 1 side of the ship, etc.

I'm pulling the trigger on a new machine in a few days when the new intel chips come out, then I can dial up the eyecandy and perhaps end my BSOD nightmares by starting with a clean slate.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

Another option is just like SH3. You dont have to use the position keeper. Its just a nice tool to "predict" your firing solution and make it more accurate for longer period of time. If you want to get off a quickie just let the position keeper off. Set up a solution and aim with crosshair.

Well you can setup a quick solution and hold the scope steady and wait for the target to pass... But if you think you're doing anything by moving the aiming wire on the scope, you're kidding yourself. If I could do that, I'd point the scope at 90° abeam to the target path, set the solution as 90° and then swing the scope to my target and let the TDC calc the AoB automatically.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by 7Enigma

Do you mean click once to open several tubes or be able to have more than one open at a time?

When I'm about to launch on several ships at once I click tube one, hit q, wait 2 seconds until I see the tube has been opened in the comments, then click tube two, hit q, wait, click tube three, hit q, etc. It takes all of 20 seconds to open up the majority of the tubes and then they can be "rapid" fired. I don't see a problem with this method. :hmm:

I'll test that... what I seemed to notice was if I went to external view and hit Q for a tube it would open... if I then selected a different tube, went to external and hit Q, the open door would close and then the new door opens? Maybe I wasn't waiting long enough? They've been working like toggle buttons for me.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by btaft

aaronblood,

There is a way around it, just don't use the PK part of the TDC. For Convoy attacks in SH3 and Sh4 I like to set up ahead of time and wait for the ship to pass my predetermined solution. It goes something like this.....

1) Line up perpendicular to the Convoy course
2) Pick a point from the perpendicular in which you want to fire from (20 deg off usually works for me....this usually results inthe torp making close to a 90 deg impact for most convoys, 30 deg worsk better for fast convoys)
3) Point your scope down this bearing
4) Enter the "expected AOB" for this bearing and the speed into the dial and send them to the TDC....do not lock in the PK....you won't be using it. You can send the distance but this is arbitrary and is only really useful for determining the speed.
5) Wait for the ship to pass into your scope and fire. You can fire at any part of the ship that enters the cross hairs and if your solution was acurate then it should hit close to that part of the ship. Also you can hit any part of any ship that passes through your cross hairs no matter what line in the convoy they are in (because the distance is irrelevant).

Inaccuracies in your solution do become more apparent the further the target is away from you. This works good so long as you don't move your scope or at least return it to the same heading before firing. Using this method you can typically fire off a couple of fish at 2-3 merchants in varying ranks/files that pass through your cross hairs and then start to dive deep to reload and get ahead of the convoy and set up for round 2.

Hope this helps

Yeah, I think that's where I'm headed at the moment...

Although, I think AVGWarhawk hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that it takes time to get accustomed to relating the PK dials with the scope observations. I can see that when the observations and PK are marching in step, that it would be very rewarding, as warhawk mentioned.

I think perhaps when I get to that point I'm gonna be setting that PK to track the bow and then use O'Kane's trick of holding the bearing constant (by transmitting 0 speed after first torpedo) and then aim my spread by letting the ship drift across the stationary wire. :hmm:

[Radtgaeb]

For some reason, my biggest issue has been in the area of sending the correct range estimate to the TDC/TK. For some reason, my stadimeter readings have left me really short.

And yes, it's patched, and yes, I do make sure I have marked the correct ship in the ID book.

[Onkel Neal]

Whenever your target changes course, turn off the PK, check you have the white "off" light, then switch it back on and set up a new firing solution. I'm finding the TDC to be very accurate. Like CCIP, I have set up on stationary ships 3500 yards away and the torp goes straight to them.

[Charos]

Originally Posted by Radtgaeb

For some reason, my biggest issue has been in the area of sending the correct range estimate to the TDC/TK. For some reason, my stadimeter readings have left me really short.

And yes, it's patched, and yes, I do make sure I have marked the correct ship in the ID book.

Thats because many of the stock mast heights are not correct -IE: The TDC is working off incorrect data from the ship ID book in game, so it plots a range solution consistant with its Known Mast height which if its incorrect provides an incorrect range.

Its an analog computer - Garbage in garbage out.

See Krupp's Mod that fixes this problem.

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I'm finding the TDC to be very accurate. Like CCIP, I have set up on stationary ships 3500 yards away and the torp goes straight to them.

Range error wont have any effect on stationary targets - only when there moving.

Change the Mogami to a Iowa in the torpedo tutorial and see what you get.

[CableRouter]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

The PK targets the "locked on" portion of the ship. To aim for certain parts of it, use the degree offset dial. For instance, if the periscope locks on the center stack of the ship, and you want to put a shot right under the bridge, unlock your periscope, move it over to where you want your torpedo to hit and note the change in bearing from the original "locked on" position. The degree change is the offset you use.

As joea mentioned, this is the way the TDC worked in real life.

There is a simpler method. Do everything normally, lock on, enter AoB and speed, then enter range. Then just before you fire, unlock the scope with the L key, aim the scope at the part of the ship you want to target, then hit the transmit data button. The TDC will update the solution for the new bearing. It's a lot easier than going to the torpedo data screen and trying to input an offset manually and it shouldn't take more than a 2-3 extra seconds.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by CableRouter

There is a simpler method. Do everything normally, lock on, enter AoB and speed, then enter range. Then just before you fire, unlock the scope with the L key, aim the scope at the part of the ship you want to target, then hit the transmit data button. The TDC will update the solution for the new bearing. It's a lot easier than going to the torpedo data screen and trying to input an offset manually and it shouldn't take more than a 2-3 extra seconds.

Two pages until someone finally brings it up. I've written about that in the past already several times, but nobody seems to read or understand it. Thank you, CableRouter.
Well, in the end, had the devs included a simple MARK button for bearing transmission like there was iRL, there would be

-more realism
-less confusion
-easier operation

The MARK button was such in integral part of the TDC that I do not understand why they didn't incooperate it and instead used "indirect" bearing transmission.

Read any book. "This is a firing observation! Stand by forward! Range 1200 yards. Bearing - MARK! Fire One!..Fire Two!...Fire Three!" "Three torpedoes fired electrically."

[nattydread]

From what I understand the poster is right. We are missing some advance functionality in the TDC and/or Periscope that would allow us to keep the TDC calculating range, speed and AoB, but allowing us to move the bearing freely.

There should be a seperate means of "marking" a new bearing without corrupting the other data. As far as I can tell, the only way to do that in game indirectly is by unlocking the target and moving the "pip" where you want it and re-sending speed data. This would only work if sending speed data is enough to input a new bearing into the TDC like range and possibly AoB does.

Either way, we need a new function called "bearing mark"...I cant believe the Devs missed that. Had the read the memoirs of some of the greates skippers ever, they'd had picked that functionality up...its a key feature!

[7Enigma]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

I'll test that... what I seemed to notice was if I went to external view and hit Q for a tube it would open... if I then selected a different tube, went to external and hit Q, the open door would close and then the new door opens? Maybe I wasn't waiting long enough? They've been working like toggle buttons for me.

Have you actually fired the torpedoes or just looked at the external view? I've never looked to see if more than one door is open, but when I open them one at a time manually and then fire several in rapid succession they do not take near as long to fire as if I never pressed Q on each one. That to me means they are open prior to firing. It's possible the graphics just aren't showing it properly?

[joea]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

Yeah, I think that's where I'm headed at the moment...

Although, I think AVGWarhawk hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that it takes time to get accustomed to relating the PK dials with the scope observations. I can see that when the observations and PK are marching in step, that it would be very rewarding, as warhawk mentioned.

I think perhaps when I get to that point I'm gonna be setting that PK to track the bow and then use O'Kane's trick of holding the bearing constant (by transmitting 0 speed after first torpedo) and then aim my spread by letting the ship drift across the stationary wire. :hmm:

Ok just to be sure, you do understand the periscopes and tbt were not directly linked to the TDC in real life...you really seemed stuck in wanting to use it as a point and shoot aiming device like they were in the u-boats but were not.

Anyway that is a good procedure right there. Imagine having to play a WWI sub though...or the earliest subs or torpedo boats...for the latter the whole boat was point and fire.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by joea

Imagine having to play a WWI sub though...or the earliest subs or torpedo boats...for the latter the whole boat was point and fire.

Yeah... right now I'm just trying to deal with playing a WWII sub sim that has no ability to easily transmit or mark a new bearing.

I think nattydread and heartc are making the same observations that I have... We need a "Mark" button.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Charos

Thats because many of the stock mast heights are not correct -IE: The TDC is working off incorrect data from the ship ID book in game, so it plots a range solution consistant with its Known Mast height which if its incorrect provides an incorrect range.

Its an analog computer - Garbage in garbage out.

See Krupp's Mod that fixes this problem.

Range error wont have any effect on stationary targets - only when there moving.

Change the Mogami to a Iowa in the torpedo tutorial and see what you get.

Another thread discussion concerns the resolution you play in. I play the set standard, 1024x768. My stadi is always within 30 yards or closer. The discussion is higher resolution may not account for changes in the stadi readings. I know my stadi is reading fine because if my sonarman has the target you can ask for a ping for range. The sonarman and I are usually with in 30 yards or less of each other. With that out of the way, I concentrate on speed. Once set, vessel is as good as dead

I do not know if gameplay resolution affects the stadi but I'm thinking it is.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by nattydread

From what I understand the poster is right. We are missing some advance functionality in the TDC and/or Periscope that would allow us to keep the TDC calculating range, speed and AoB, but allowing us to move the bearing freely.

There should be a seperate means of "marking" a new bearing without corrupting the other data. As far as I can tell, the only way to do that in game indirectly is by unlocking the target and moving the "pip" where you want it and re-sending speed data. This would only work if sending speed data is enough to input a new bearing into the TDC like range and possibly AoB does.

Either way, we need a new function called "bearing mark"...I cant believe the Devs missed that. Had the read the memoirs of some of the greates skippers ever, they'd had picked that functionality up...its a key feature!

You lost me here on this. As far as I can tell, you do not need to keep the target locked. You can put the crosshairs anywhere you want and set up a solution. The locking function is just a helper for the player because you are required to do all the TDC inputs as well, open doors, set up torpedoes, etc. In RL the Skipper is hollering out the bearing, speed etc while the TDC operator is putting in the values. The guys in forward torpedo room are doing the rest. There was no lock on the scope/TBT. Anyway, if you are in a convoy situation or a few vessels to hammer, generally the ships are all heading in the same direction and same speed. So the TDC is already set up for this. Your get your range on the first vessel you would like to sink, send out two torps, swing the scope on to the next vessel, get range and enter it, send out two more torps. Sit back and what for the party. For the most part and the USS Cod readings will tell you, selection of certain ships within the convoy was obtainable. Generally going after the biggest fish...carrier, fat tanker, DD. All torpedoes sent after the one target, if course is changed in the interium, something is still going to get hit because there is nothing but a huge wall of hulls in the way of your oncoming torpedoes.

At any rate, there is only one TDC so you can not set up multiple ships on a firing solution all at once. All you really need is good AOB and speed. Send out torps on the first target, get range on the next target, fire. Attempt to bring your stern tubes to bear.

At any rate, I'm lost as to the "Mark Bearing". As far as I can tell, the Skipper called this out along with speed and AOB. The skipper was the connection to the TDC, not the scope. So if you are saying we should be able to unlock and still set up the TDC to any part of the vessel or leading the vessel, then I understand what you are getting at. It might be possible in the game. I will have to check next time I play.