GWX's "uber" AI demystified

[Iron Budokan]

Excellent post. Good work.

[Woof1701]

Hi Ducimus,

Really excellent post. Since I was never one to complain about the DDs sonar capabilities but about their visual abilities I have a favor to ask:

How does the visual system work. I constantly have problems shadowing convoys and attacking them on the surface at night. Even with really bad weather. And I even had my scope spotted several times when I was literally miles away.

Thanks a lot.

[Brag]

Excellent post, Ducimus. The ilustrations sure help in visualizing the problem and the escort's limitations. The good U-boat captain will take advantage of the knowledge gained.

Thanks!!

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by ref

No, what he means is that it if it's pinging you it doesn't matter if you're going flank, as he's emmiting an active signal he can detect you no matter what speed you're doing, the asdic (active sonar) emmits a high frecuency sound that transmits through the water, when it reaches your sub it reflects in you hull and returns, the asdic operator is listening and measuring the time elapsed between the emited sound and the echo he can get a fix on the distance and bearing of your sub, the asdic is not affected as much as the hydrophone by the hunter speed, that's why they can make a run for you at high speed, while his companions keep a low speed listening to the hydrophones.

Ref

Thanks ref

EDIT:

Originally Posted by ref

Just take into account that because you hear the pings it doesn't mean they have detected you with the asdic, just that they suspect that you're in the vicinity , either because they hear you in the hydrophones or they'd spoted your periscope and then they switch to their most acurate sensor to get a hard fix on you, the only real indicator that they've precisely located the sub is when they accelerate to make a DC run, if you go ahead flank and they're just trying to figure out where the hell are you then you're just telling them "hey I'm here"...

Ref

This is also true. In some instances you'll still get a "we're being pinged sir", because the sonar is being pointed in your general direction, but it doesnt mean they have a hard fix on you... yet. Some quirk with the WE ive never been able to understand.

edit:

Ref's the man!

Originally Posted by ref

Please read my previous post, if he's pinging you he's not listening with the hydrophones, he's locating you with the asdic, if you go flank he'll still be tracking you, and it's not cheating, that's what happen in real life, the advantage you have is that when he's making a DC run you can go flank for a few moments after he passes your position without giving up your position, but that only works if there's only one ship chasing you, if there are more one of them is always at low speed tracking you with the hydrophones.

Ref

With multiple escorts on you, there is ALWAYS at least one that is listening for you.

[fredbass]

I'm sure many players still aren't aware that lowering your speed at silent running to 2k will make a big difference and therefore probably haven't added the Dec. 23 fix either, for one reason or another. I've found that once that is accomplished, there is nothing exceptionally tough about avoiding damage, as long as I have some depth to work with and the war is still in a fairly early point in time.

And remember what Ducimus has showed you. It can be an advantage to run at a shallower depth to keep your acute angle towards a ship at a minimum, if possible.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

There are several types of sonar, and they all differ in geometric statistcs. Each one becoming a bit more effective then the previous version. From all ive been able to tell, the AI will not ping you unless:

A.) You are in his active sonar cone.
b.) You are presenting him a favorable aspect
c.) You are doing both A, and B for X number of seconds.

Excellent post Ducimus! Although this is something I've gradually intuited over many months it's still an excellent reference for me, and I'm sure valuable to both old and new alike. Thanks and appreciation for the time you spent on this!

One thing I wanted to point out, though. There have been more than a few occassions where I've had tin cans start pinging, even though I'm several hundred to over a thousand meters directly behind them. I'm certainly not in their active sonar cone at that point.

I think what happens is that an escort won't, without any reason, just begin actively pinging unless your doing A, B and C (which is how I'm interpreting your post). However, once they've twigged onto a U-boat in the vicinity, or have lost passive contact with you for a number of minutes, they'll start actively pinging seeking to re-acquire contact again.

In that situation, simply hearing pings doesn't mean they are getting an echo from you. It is, though, a very good indication that they are serious about finding your butt.

Again, kudos and appreciation for your work!

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Albrecht Von Hesse

One thing I wanted to point out, though. There have been more than a few occassions where I've had tin cans start pinging, even though I'm several hundred to over a thousand meters directly behind them. I'm certainly not in their active sonar cone at that point.

I think what happens is that an escort won't, without any reason, just begin actively pinging unless your doing A, B and C (which is how I'm interpreting your post). However, once they've twigged onto a U-boat in the vicinity, or have lost passive contact with you for a number of minutes, they'll start actively pinging seeking to re-acquire contact again.

Thanks for reminding me about this. What is going on is their on an "alert" state having detected a uboat. And will be that way until the lost contact time has expired, which is 30 mins.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

DUCIMUS......"common complaint with GWX is that the AI is too hard or Uber. I really feel this is borne out of a lack of understanding how the AI works. I'm not going to bombard you with a lot of detailed information, just a basic gist of how it functions, so we don't have too many people becoming members of the "2nd patrol club". "


Hey, that hurt!!!! I'm recruiting for my club and you come up with this????? Thats it, you are not getting an honorary membership and I do not care how much you have donated to the cause...... Good day, Sir!!!!......your off my Christmas list as of today.


The AI are not to hard. It is just that everyone refuses to be challenged!

LOL i wondered if if you were gonna catch that. I figured id poke some good natured fun your way.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Thanks for reminding me about this. What is going on is their on an "alert" state having detected a uboat. And will be that way until the lost contact time has expired, which is 30 mins.

No prob. This is dayuhm impressive Ducimus!

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Albrecht Von Hesse

No prob. This is dayuhm impressive Ducimus!

Well its not like i figured it ALL out on my own. I did alot of research into detection, but as i recall it was Cmdr Gibs that explained the geometry of active sonar to me when things weren't quite clicking. Once it was explained to me, everything cemented in.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

LOL i wondered if if you were gonna catch that. I figured id poke some good natured fun your way.

I know!!!! It's a hoot:rotfl::rotfl:Well written for the boys and I think all have a good grasp on what they are up against. GWX was not made to be easy because the real thing was not easy. BTW you still are not getting the free membership

[GT182]

Excellent work Ducimus... as always!

Now a couple of questions. How does DD AI know where you are after a torpedo launch, especially if it's a Type II electric? [I can understand a Type I steam as it leaves bubbles and makes noise.] Is it from sound it makes or your sub they pick up on? I've seen that no matter how far away you are they always head to where the fish was fired from... be it 3000 meters, or 2200 meters as in you photos. And the speed of my sub is at 1 or 2kts... usually 1kt and "Silent Running". When I'm in position and ready to launch, it's always a Type II electric for the "surprise" effect, and it sure wakes 'em up in a hurry too. LOL

AVG... we already belong to the best club there is.... SubSim. Why start another? Just picking on ya mate.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

BTW you still are not getting the free membership

I'd have to be sunk on my 2nd patrol for that :P

No, you know what happends to my career games? I get bored and start over with a new one. Im about a hairs breadth away from deleting my U-64 career game in 1940 and startng a new game in 42. For some reason these days, i have a hard time sticking to a career. The U-125 career thats listed in my sig, i decided to use SH3 commander to end it in a graceful way because i was tempted to delete it and start over with a new game again. I seem to have a problem with this.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I'd have to be sunk on my 2nd patrol for that :P

No, you know what happends to my career games? I get bored and start over with a new one. Im about a hairs breadth away from deleting my U-64 career game in 1940 and startng a new game in 42. For some reason these days, i have a hard time sticking to a career. The U-125 career thats listed in my sig, i decided to use SH3 commander to end it in a graceful way because i was tempted to delete it and start over with a new game again. I seem to have a problem with this.

I have no problem sticking to careers......they are so short :rotfl::rotfl:Actually I'm on patrol 4 in 1941. It is about to get uglier

[ref]

Originally Posted by GT182

Excellent work Ducimus... as always!

Now a couple of questions. How does DD AI know where you are after a torpedo launch, especially if it's a Type II electric? [I can understand a Type I steam as it leaves bubbles and makes noise.] Is it from sound it makes or your sub they pick up on? I've seen that no matter how far away you are they always head to where the fish was fired from... be it 3000 meters, or 2200 meters as in you photos. And the speed of my sub is at 1 or 2kts... usually 1kt and "Silent Running". When I'm in position and ready to launch, it's always a Type II electric for the "surprise" effect, and it sure wakes 'em up in a hurry too. LOL

AVG... we already belong to the best club there is.... SubSim. Why start another? Just picking on ya mate.

I'm not sure about how the game models it, but the high speed screws from a torpedo (either steam or electric) produces a high pitch sound that can be heard from a long distance, both for the pitch and the volume, don't forget that it's travelling at 28+ knots.

Ref