Type XXI? The saviour?

[AVGWarhawk]

What we know of the outcome of the war, I can only speculate that the XXI would have PROLONGED the war but the end results would have been the same although more deadly to the general German population. The A-bomb probably would still have been used against Japan at the time it was and probably Germany would not have surrendered at this point. After the A-bomb was utilized in Japan, I believe the Germans would have laid down their arms at that point. No doubt the XXI for the time was a nasty weapon. Rubber coated sides to avoid sonar and asdic, snorkel, two 4000 hp diesels, six forward firing tubes full of acoustic torpedos. This makes for some really bad times for the Allies and Britian's struggle would have been much worse if not a total loss!

[Respenus]

Nice to hear the info on the subject, but like I said, it's "What if...?". You need to look at the bigger picture.

Maybe if the Germans occupied England, it might have been posible, that they would have certain industrial advantage (starve them out, then bomb all but their industry; not really possible, but hey, you can never trully know).

[MarshalLaw]

Would not have mattered if it was the XXI or VII series boats, Numbers at the beginning would have made a huge difference. If Hitler would have sided fully with Dornitz and embraced the subs instead of siding with the Surface fleet admirals, vaste resources that were wasted on the Bismark and Turpiz, could have raised the number of uboats ready for sea to 200-300 by Sept 1939. By closing the gaps that they could not in reality with 50-60 boats. The British would have been starved for supplies by 1940. With little oil getting through, the Battle of Britian would have been won and Operation "Sea Lion" would have gone ahead. By the end of 1941 England would have surrendered or been close to it.

As for The US the line of thinking at the time was it's a european affair and we need not get involved. Plus Hitler was no fool, he would have done or said anything to delay the US getting involved as long as possible.

One small decision on who to back with resources could have made things quite differant indeed.

[Tachyon]

Originally Posted by Respenus

Nice to hear the info on the subject, but like I said, it's "What if...?". You need to look at the bigger picture.

Maybe if the Germans occupied England, it might have been posible, that they would have certain industrial advantage (starve them out, then bomb all but their industry; not really possible, but hey, you can never trully know).

Hm..well, even if Germany attempted to occupy England via the sea route , it'd be nearly suicide since they never did have air superiority , all those troop transports would be RAF fodder.

And in my opinion, sure Type XXI would have made a difference, atleast when it came to sub_losses:tonnage, but as others have pointed out, the no. of subs was more important, sometimes you can overwhelm the enemy through sheer numbers (just like the Russians or on a more colourful note, the Zerg in StarCraft).

An interesting "What If" scenario this has been, and I thank all of you for sharing your opinions. Godspeed Herr Kaleun!

[STEED]

Originally Posted by MarshalLaw

Operation "Sea Lion" would have gone ahead. By the end of 1941 England would have surrendered or been close to it.

Hardly, Hitler had his hands full on the Eastern Front and lost his time table to take Moscow due to changing plans in August/September 1941.

Originally Posted by MarshalLaw

As for The US the line of thinking at the time was it's a european affair and we need not get involved. Plus Hitler was no fool, he would have done or said anything to delay the US getting involved as long as possible.

Japan changed that thinking and Hitler made his next big blunder.

[P_Funk]

Lets face it, Hitler lost the war. Hitler choked with Britain and then bit off too much with Russia. Remember the Schliffen plan? It was obvious in 1914 that Germany couldn't win a 2 front war. Hitler had deftly avoided one with the Non-agression pact. Instead, however, of finishing Britain or finding some end to that end of hostilities (or even expolring that even if it was unrealistic) he blundered into the maw of the Russian Colossus.

Hitler CREATED a two front war. We can talk about technology and industrial output all we want. Hitler buried his nation before America entered the war.

I think that the only what if that would make a real difference in the long run is what if Hitler wasn't such a tactical douche.

[STEED]

To sum up the Russian factor Hitler tried to kill the goose that laid the golden egg and failed.

Hitler said it himself in 1941 "If we fail to take Russia in six months it would have all been for nothing."

[P_Funk]

Indeed. But logistically I don't even see how he figured to control Russia. It is such a vast place and Germany had so few soldiers. Just to keep order in the west would have denied Germany any ability to fight on. Realistically you can't occupy Russia. Unless the communist regime aggrees to help in controlling the country with Germany at the helm but that isnt realistic either given Stalin.

Russia seems like a fools war. No one was ever able to do it.

[STEED]

Typical O.K.H. short term planing. The more you read about the Eastern Front the more you come to the conclusion, why bother.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by STEED

Typical O.K.H. short term planing. The more you read about the Eastern Front the more you come to the conclusion, why bother.

It seems like they treated it like any small Western European nation which could easily be occupied and made to submit. France, Poland, Czecheslovakia, all small and easily taken. Russia is a completel different beast yet I can't for the life of me figure out how no one was able to make Hitler see that he was trying to catch Moby Dick a Lobster trab.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by P_Funk

It seems like they treated it like any small Western European nation which could easily be occupied and made to submit. France, Poland, Czecheslovakia, all small and easily taken. Russia is a completel different beast yet I can't for the life of me figure out how no one was able to make Hitler see that he was trying to catch Moby Dick a Lobster trab.

Well they were on a high note. Apart from that it was also part of Hitler's war on the Jew's.

[P_Funk]

The Leibensraum platform was there since the beginning. However certainly it is possible to understand the limitations of a plan. And certainly Hitler wasn't against scrapping or changing plans. For instance the Navy was supposed to have a building plan that would have ended in 1945. Hitler was too impatient to wait for that.

It was likely his obcessive idealized world view that drove him to suicide in the East. He was never very good at thinking practically. He was great for creating belief and building a nation. But he seemed to have lacked a certain sensibility that was necessary for winning a war with the world.

[holden88]

Germany still would have lost the war even if they had type XXI's in 40'. The vast majority of Germany's industiral military might was deployed on the Russian front and this is where the war was lost. The Russian juggernaught would have still pushed the them back deep into Germany regardless of any success the Germans might have in the war at sea.

Now if Germany had large numbers of Me-262's and Panther tanks in 1940, then I'd say that would have had a hell of an impact on the war.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by holden88

Now if Germany had large numbers of Me-262's and Panther tanks in 1940, then I'd say that would have had a hell of an impact on the war.

The ME262 engines had a life plan of 10 hours before they need to be replaced. The Panther (A) was rushed into service for the battle of Kursk 1943 and they lost more of them not to the Russians but due to over heating problems in the engine. You can say all sorts of things if they had the Tiger tanks and Jagdpanther the Arado 234 all in 1940 it's all a what if situation.

[P_Funk]

...a what if situation that would require so many other factors to be different that the basic reason the war went the way it did would have been fundamentally changed.

To have certain technology earlier would require earlier tests, faster design to production times, a much higher production quotient for Germany, and a ridiculous sense of overkill if we're gonna talk about Tigers in 1940. Back then the German tanks of the day were still besting the best Allied tanks of the day.

It wasn't technology that failed Germany, it was basic industry. The Allies outproduced Hitler. The basis of any successful modern war in Europe for Germany depended on a quick victory that would cut the head off of France and Britain.

As in WW1, WW2 saw a modified war of attrition against Germany where the benefits of better technology did not counter the benefits of superior manpower and industrial output enough.

The Blitzkrieg that is so famous was really a brief thing. Against less prepared and powerful armies it worked. By the time the Allies had put themselves together it became less mobile and became more drawn out. Drawn out warfare for Germany was a killer.

In the end if you want to see how Germany could have won, without denying the Allies any of their characteristics of the time, you would have to increase her population by a large amount, increase her industrial output, and... well do alot more to beef Germany up. The irony there is that the thing which Germany needed to win WW2 would likely have been the very thing Hitler was using to justify the war: a bigger Germany.

You wanna make it so that Gemnay could have won that war we might want to go back a thousand years to the division of Gaul and give Germany a bigger lot. But then it would all have been different.

These what ifs are like thinking you'll just pull a thread and instead realise that you are unravelling our entire history.