Who Started World War II?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Care of yourself, you're saying the same thing as me.

I am beginning to grow tired of your constant rebukes and predictable almost pro forma responses. Make the case and respond to the counter-arguments or retire from the conversation.

Subsim and said management have been magnanimous in giving you a platform to air your views when in all honesty, said views would probably be better welcomed in certain online sites that conflict with SubSim policy and as such are banned and unacceptable to making reference to on this forum.

Post reports are growing in intensity and frequency and as I alluded to earlier, I would rather not develop a heart or chest condition.

Do you not think you would better fit in with those acceptable forums?

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Care of yourself, you're saying the same thing as me.

No I'm not, that much is obvious.

But you just admitted to being a Holocaust denier, so thank you for that

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Oberon

But he did insinuate that in the future that "a struggle for world domination might take place between the United States and a European alliance comprising a "new association of nations, consisting of individual states with high national value".

Furthermore, in the Zweites Buch he also states that long term, the greatest potential opponent was the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweites_Buch

Interesting. FDR understood quickly that a strong Germany liberated from the international finance was a huge threat against the capitalist world. That's why, already in January 1939, the US were actively preparing for war.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Interesting. FDR understood quickly that a strong Germany liberated from the international finance was a huge threat against the capitalist world. That's why, already in January 1939, the US were actively preparing for war.

Why would a strong or whatever Germany be "liberated from the international finance"? That only happens in case of war, and the money markets are not "international" anymore during war time.

Also, contrary to some views (i was astonished to see this just of all in the US), Germany was capitalistic as it always had been. Big industry was not touched, a lot of former jewish companies were "of course" being shut down, joined other companies, or nationalised. Miltary and politics had to pay for all services and hardware, it was just that the money for all that was stolen from the jews, and with printing more money.

In case of the Junkers works, the company was still a capitalistic one, just with another head. Hugo Junkers had shown no love for the Nazi regime, so he was neutralised, and most probably murdered.

Despite the name "national socialism", this was no socialism at all. The name was just used to also get the left to support the party as long as such support counted, before Hitler's enabling act and the begin of the official dictatorship.


FD Roosevelt certainly had no love for dictatorships, and especially wanted to help England, so he managed to help against the will of the congress, which at first wanted to stay out of the war. But it sure was not his fear of a financially independent Germany that made him try to support England. Without the war the german financial system would have collapsed quickly.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Despite the name "national socialism", this was no socialism at all. The name was just used to also get the left to support the party as long as such support counted, before Hitler's enabling act and the begin of the official dictatorship.

That's obviously wrong. National-socialism ("nazism") has been the only political movement that really applied socialism. No people were happier than the Germans during the early years of the Third Reich. Of course, Jews were disadvantaged, and then persecuted. On this, I disagree with Hitler. There was no need to persecute the jewish people when the german people had become strong again.

Hitler said something like that in 1933 : "The people are not at the service of the economy, and the economy is not at the service of capital. But capital serves the economy, and economy serves the people."

Originally Posted by Catfish

Without the war the german financial system would have collapsed quickly.

That's absolutely wrong. On the contrary, the german financial system was the healthiest and most stable (practically no inflation) in the world. A french economist (which was not nazi...) named Francis Delaisi * wrote a book on this subject. The german economic recovery ("the economic miracle") was achieved without borrowing money, but thanks to the system of "traites de travail" (i don't know how to translate this expression in english, maybe "milkings of work", lol).

* EDIT : You can see a brief presentation of Francis Delaisi on the french wikipedia : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Delaisi

Originally Posted by Catfish

FD Roosevelt certainly had no love for dictatorships...

Yes, and you know why ? Because they can't be manipulated, unlike the "democracies".

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

Hitler said something like that in 1933 : "The people are not at the service of the economy, and the economy is not at the service of capital. But capital serves the economy, and economy serves the people."

He also said he wouldn't annex Czechoslovakia.

He also said he wouldn't invade Russia.

He also said he would make Germany great.

Hitler said a lot of things.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

[...] National-socialism ("nazism") has been the only political movement that really applied socialism. ...

HFBS (and HF=high flying)
Yeah right, now tell me how anyone could possibly mistake Hitler's dictatorship, for "socialism"? What about Krupp, and all those other capitalistic companies who arranged themselves with Hitler to make money? Porsche? Mercedes? Rheinmetall? a.s.o.

No people were happier than the Germans during the early years of the Third Reich.

Some of them, sure, but not the majority. It also were not the most intelligent ones, but yes.
The brown SA (the killer and terror branch of Hitler's nazi party) threatened and terrorized jews, other minorities, the communists, socialists, the social democrats, the conservative parties and anyone who dared to speak up againt the NSDAP or Hitler.

After all those german Freicorps fighting each others in the street, and all against socialists and communists, had either joined the SA, forced into submission or were plain killed, intellectuals driven out or killed, and political competition threatened or killed, there was just not much resistance left in the population due to threats, sheer terror and a general atmosphere of real Angst.

A lot of people certainly believed Hitler, a lot of others just saw the superficial avantages, like aviation was pushed and developed, and there were jobs, lots of them! All paid by pillaging jewish and other people's property, by freezing bank accounts of people who had to leave Germany in a haste, by printing more money and borrowing from banks, with the promise of a big return.
They built streets and infrastructure, not to forget all kinds of military hardware, but of course with the clear object to use it, against the Soviet Union. Which was, after all, commmunistic, socialistic and soviet, and thus the contrary of Hitler and his régime.

And with that there was prosperity, the street fights stopped, and Germany was a suddenly a peaceful and strong country (b.t.w. this is cynism, if you do did not get it!).

Of course, Jews were disadvantaged, and then persecuted.

Wow, now that's some insight.

There was no need to persecute the jewish people when the german people had become strong again.

Oh yes there was a need, because someone had to be the scapegoat for a mess that had been inherited from others, last not least fanned by Hitler and his later followers. There was even a song "An allem sind die Juden schuld" and lots of other critical and aggressive chansons that made fun of Hitler, his accusations, claims and his régime. You can probably imagine, what happened to the artists.
There were also attempts to kill Hitler, but he always escaped, if by a hair.

A lot of people did not see what was going on behind the stage, i'd give you that. The media were strictly controlled (Gleichschaltung of newspaper press, radio, publishers, burning of books considered as critical of the Nazis), any public meetings verboten, and so on.

My father who was born in 1911, told me a lot of those things. There were other relatives, of the time, and most male ones of course became soldiers, at the time. What i write is not all school, university and what you like to call re-education.

We now know how it all worked, and it is a lot easier in hindsight. But a lot knew, and preferred not to see it or look away. Just like today, i might say.

[Oberon]

Wasn't one of Skybirds rants a while ago featuring how National Socialism was a form of socialism, or something?

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Wasn't one of Skybirds rants a while ago featuring how National Socialism was a form of socialism, or something?

What has he not ranted about?

[Oberon]

Oh, and here seems a good as place as any to drop these:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq1...ower_lifestyle

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq2...sent_lifestyle

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq2...-war_lifestyle

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq2...east_lifestyle

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq3...inka_lifestyle

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq3...-end_lifestyle

Worth a watch.

Originally Posted by Dowly

What has he not ranted about?

Fair point.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Dowly

What has he not ranted about?

steak and model railroad

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Betonov

steak and model railroad

He's slipping.

PS. Also, on topic, here are two links that I think are quite good.

British Blue Book
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/blbkmenu.asp

and

French Yellow Book
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/ylbkmenu.asp

Both give a good view on the diplomatic stuff prior and during the war.

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

My father who was born in 1911, told me a lot of those things. There were other relatives, of the time, and most male ones of course became soldiers, at the time. What i write is not all school, university and what you like to call re-education.

That pretty much matches my mothers family experience. All three of her uncles were killed fighting "peaceful" hitlers war (as was her grandfather in the previous war) and while my grandfather survived he was left horribly scarred both mentally and physically. I've seen it myself. No need to rely on the writings of obscure neo-nazi apologists to see what I have seen with my own eyes.

I think it's a disservice to my grand uncles and the millions of their fellow Germans who also died in that war for these "revisionists", to be allowed a soapbox to re-spread the social disease that is nazism.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Wasn't one of Skybirds rants a while ago featuring how National Socialism was a form of socialism, or something?

It was , national socialism was a mutation of socialism.
The ultimate goals had been different yet the economy was regulated in a way to achieve certain goals for the benefit of average Germans , not only heads of industry.

I suppose an analogy can be china's economic system as a off shot of communism.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by MH

It was , national socialism was a mutation of socialism.
The ultimate goals had been different yet the economy was regulated in a way to achieve certain goals for the benefit of average Germans , not only heads of industry.

I suppose an analogy can be china's economic system as a off shot of communism.

That's what I thought, and comparing it to China is probably the closest analogy you can get really, from an economic standpoint.
I recall that NSDAP came to power on a very pro-workers, pro-working class platform, and did a lot of union work...but only if you were in the correct union, which became easier after a while because all the other ones were made illegal.
I think if you detach the hindsight and look at the NSDAP manifesto in the early years, from 33-36 you can see why there was popularity amongst the people, if you were the correct religion and political and ethnic background then the Nazis brought you a great deal of good things, but if you weren't then you wound up in prison or a work-camp, or dead, or all three.