Spanish train crash

Spiced_Rum · 07-25-13, 06:16 AM

Quote:

At least 78 people have been killed in the passenger train derailment in north-western Spain on Wednesday.

More than 140 were hurt, 20 seriously, after all eight carriages of the Madrid to Ferrol train came off the tracks near Santiago de Compostela.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23448002

Another sad day for rail travel, condolences go out to their families.

Oberon · 07-25-13, 06:59 AM

It's looking like overspeed caused the accident, the line enters a sharp curve there and the speed limit drops from about 125 to 50mph (85km/h) whilst a mile beyond the overspeed protection of the ETCS system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...Control_System).
The driver apparently realised he was overspeed scant seconds before the curve, and well...the very harrowing CCTV footage below shows exactly what happened next:

Certainly at initial glance the fault potentially lies with the driver for not decreasing speed before the 50mph limit, however it's a very poor infrastructure design that puts a 500m radius curve that forces a sudden drop from 125 to 50mph. We have a similar problem at a place called Morpeth on the East Coast Main Line, and it's resulted in four accidents over 130 years, as trains have entered the 50mph limited section at speeds of 80 plus mph, although alcohol has, in a couple of the crashes, also been a factor.

Herr-Berbunch · 07-25-13, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Sheesh!

I'd only heard about in on the radio and on the BBC News website, I didn't realise it was on CCTV.

If ETCS was enabled (and working) how could this happen?

Oberon · 07-25-13, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

If ETCS was enabled (and working) how could this happen?

Sadly the ETCS ended about a mile before the curve.

Wolferz · 07-25-13, 08:16 AM

Drivin that train
High on cocaine
Casey Jones you better watch your speed
Trouble ahead
Trouble behind
And you know that notion just crossed my mind
~Jerry Garcia~

Doesn't it always boil down to human error?

My condolences to the victims.

Oberon · 07-25-13, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolferz

Doesn't it always boil down to human error?

In some shape or form, we design the system, make it and and maintain it, although sometimes things outside our control cause disasters, natural events, electrical faults, that kind of thing.

Wolferz · 07-25-13, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

In some shape or form, we design the system, make it and and maintain it, although sometimes things outside our control cause disasters, natural events, electrical faults, that kind of thing.

Best laid plans of mice and men and all that rot.

Kptlt. Neuerburg · 07-25-13, 10:22 AM

Machines and technology cannot eliminate the factor of human error. What I'm wondering is, if the ETCS ended before the bend why isn't there a part of the line to reduce speed a certain distance before reaching the bend? If the speed on the straight is 125, then a reduction in speed to around 70 or 65mph before the turn should be called for which would make it much easier and safer to enter the turn at 50. Trains don't stop on a dime, let alone slow down on a whim.

Jimbuna · 07-25-13, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg

Machines and technology cannot eliminate the factor of human error. What I'm wondering is, if the ETCS ended before the bend why isn't there a part of the line to reduce speed a certain distance before reaching the bend? If the speed on the straight is 125, then a reduction in speed to around 70 or 65mph before the turn should be called for which would make it much easier and safer to enter the turn at 50. Trains don't stop on a dime, let alone slow down on a whim.

I agree....an extra safeguard before the bend may have prevented this disaster....something to override human error.

BossMark · 07-25-13, 10:46 AM

The link actually shows the train taking the bend at high speed and well you know what happened next............

http://news.sky.com/story/1120288/sp...saster-emerges

Platapus · 07-25-13, 02:22 PM

A railroad car, being lighter, and having a higher center of gravity, than the engine, it is not surprising it was the first to derail. What a horrible accident.

TorpX · 07-26-13, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Sadly the ETCS ended about a mile before the curve.

What's the point of having ETCS, if you leave the dangerous areas uncovered? From your descrption of the curve, that is the area that needed it most.

Spiced_Rum · 07-26-13, 05:37 AM

When I posted this link, I thought it was a tragic event. Turns out that my wife's cousin's girlfriend's Spanish housemate's best friend was on that particular train and one of the fatalities. It is a small world. It made for a quieter evening with everyone around our house last night contemplating life.

Wolferz · 07-26-13, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiced_Rum

When I posted this link, I thought it was a tragic event. Turns out that my wife's cousin's girlfriend's Spanish housemate's best friend was on that particular train and one of the fatalities. It is a small world. It made for a quieter evening with everyone around our house last night contemplating life.

Live each day as though it were your last.

I don't pity the dead. I pity the living.

Oberon · 08-04-13, 06:37 PM

An interesting and thought provoking blog post about the aftermath of the crash and some questions that need to be asked of the Spanish railway company. I have, since the crash occurred, been concerned that too much focus would be placed on scape-goating the driver and not enough on the infrastructure in which the crash occurred.

http://zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk/20...-tell-you.html

EDIT: And for those who are interested in this sort of thing, earlier on this thread I mentioned a place in the UK called Morpeth and the various crashes that have taken place there over the years. One of which took place in 1969 and resulted in the following investigation and report:

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/doc...orpeth1969.pdf

07-25-13, 08:16 AM	#5
Wolferz Navy Seal Join Date: May 2007 Location: On a mighty quest for the Stick of Truth Posts: 5,963 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	Drivin that train High on cocaine Casey Jones you better watch your speed Trouble ahead Trouble behind And you know that notion just crossed my mind ~Jerry Garcia~ Doesn't it always boil down to human error? My condolences to the victims. __________________ Tomorrow never comes

07-25-13, 10:22 AM	#8
Kptlt. Neuerburg Admiral Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 2,280 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	Machines and technology cannot eliminate the factor of human error. What I'm wondering is, if the ETCS ended before the bend why isn't there a part of the line to reduce speed a certain distance before reaching the bend? If the speed on the straight is 125, then a reduction in speed to around 70 or 65mph before the turn should be called for which would make it much easier and safer to enter the turn at 50. Trains don't stop on a dime, let alone slow down on a whim. __________________ "When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat." - George Carlin

07-25-13, 10:46 AM	#10
BossMark Fleet Admiral Join Date: May 2011 Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire Posts: 15,272 Downloads: 278 Uploads: 0	The link actually shows the train taking the bend at high speed and well you know what happened next............ http://news.sky.com/story/1120288/sp...saster-emerges __________________ Never trust the Tories look what Thatcher and Major did in the 80s and 90s and look what the wicked witch May is doing now doing now

07-25-13, 02:22 PM	#11
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,393 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	A railroad car, being lighter, and having a higher center of gravity, than the engine, it is not surprising it was the first to derail. What a horrible accident. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

07-26-13, 05:37 AM	#13
Spiced_Rum Ace of the Deep Join Date: May 2013 Location: Enjoying a run ashore Posts: 1,129 Downloads: 69 Uploads: 0	When I posted this link, I thought it was a tragic event. Turns out that my wife's cousin's girlfriend's Spanish housemate's best friend was on that particular train and one of the fatalities. It is a small world. It made for a quieter evening with everyone around our house last night contemplating life. __________________ Spiced_Rum "The only rocks I want to see are in my glass, and covered with lashings of Spicey and Coke"

07-25-13, 06:59 AM	#2
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	It's looking like overspeed caused the accident, the line enters a sharp curve there and the speed limit drops from about 125 to 50mph (85km/h) whilst a mile beyond the overspeed protection of the ETCS system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...Control_System). The driver apparently realised he was overspeed scant seconds before the curve, and well...the very harrowing CCTV footage below shows exactly what happened next: Certainly at initial glance the fault potentially lies with the driver for not decreasing speed before the 50mph limit, however it's a very poor infrastructure design that puts a 500m radius curve that forces a sudden drop from 125 to 50mph. We have a similar problem at a place called Morpeth on the East Coast Main Line, and it's resulted in four accidents over 130 years, as trains have entered the 50mph limited section at speeds of 80 plus mph, although alcohol has, in a couple of the crashes, also been a factor.

08-04-13, 06:37 PM	#15
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	An interesting and thought provoking blog post about the aftermath of the crash and some questions that need to be asked of the Spanish railway company. I have, since the crash occurred, been concerned that too much focus would be placed on scape-goating the driver and not enough on the infrastructure in which the crash occurred. http://zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk/20...-tell-you.html EDIT: And for those who are interested in this sort of thing, earlier on this thread I mentioned a place in the UK called Morpeth and the various crashes that have taken place there over the years. One of which took place in 1969 and resulted in the following investigation and report: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/doc...orpeth1969.pdf