Opinion: The Holocaust Just Got More Shocking

[Gerald]

A group of Jewish women at the entrance to the Brody ghetto in Eastern Galicia, 1942. The sign is written in German, Ukrainian and Polish.

THIRTEEN years ago, researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum began the grim task of documenting all the ghettos, slave labor sites, concentration camps and killing factories that the Nazis set up throughout Europe.

What they have found so far has shocked even scholars steeped in the history of the Holocaust. The researchers have cataloged some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself, during Hitler’s reign of brutality from 1933 to 1945.

The figure is so staggering that even fellow Holocaust scholars had to make sure they had heard it correctly when the lead researchers previewed their findings at an academic forum in late January at the German Historical Institute in Washington.

“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” Hartmut Berghoff, director of the institute, said in an interview after learning of the new data.

“We knew before how horrible life in the camps and ghettos was,” he said, “but the numbers are unbelievable.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/su...-shocking.html

We will never forget them atrocities during the war, nor those who lost their lives in these camps.


Note: March 1, 2013

[NeonSamurai]

I don't know where to even begin with that article... wait no yes I do, the author knows almost nothing about the topic of the Holocaust. This is neither new nor particularly shocking to Holocaust historians, we just have a better idea of the number now. We knew that the Germans used a lot of satellite camps, and smaller ghettos that would be pushed into larger ones as the liquidation (read extermination) of the Jews progressed. Several of the concentration camps had not a whole lot to do with the Holocaust itself; they were used to hold political prisoners and POWs as well. Plus the author seems to be mixing up concentration camps and death camps, which are entirely different entities, which gets further confused when talking about Auschwitz which had both types of camp.

[MH]

I don't want to argue about anything here but it seems its not the author but .....(this subject is talked about enough)

The figure is so staggering that even fellow Holocaust scholars had to make sure they had heard it correctly when the lead researchers previewed their findings at an academic forum in late January at the German Historical Institute in Washington.

“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” Hartmut Berghoff, director of the institute, said in an interview after learning of the new data.

“We knew before how horrible life in the camps and ghettos was,” he said, “but the numbers are unbelievable.”

BW
Can't read the article without login in?

[NeonSamurai]

I was referring more to some of the comments by the author, whom I felt was being seriously overly dramatic; how can the holocaust possibly become more shocking? It is already totality incomprehensible and soul numbing as it is.

Like I said we have a better idea now of the actual number of camps. I often wonder though if some of these historians have any understanding of logistics as the new figures don't surprise me in the slightest if you sit down and think about it would work (particularly if you consider all the little slave labor camps for the different manufacturers). Another factor is many of these camps and ghettos would have been in operation for a very brief time, some probably only for a week or two while they liquidated the individual towns and small cities and condensed the Jews found into the larger ghettos. Even the major death camps from Aktion Reinhard (which combined caused the most deaths) only operated for a year to two tops (most were closer to 1 year).

I didn't have any trouble accessing the article though.

[MH]

I didn't have any trouble accessing the article though.

Had the cookies disabled and forgot about it.

Yes it seems that it is all about documenting the whole network behind this all.
As the article says:

Auschwitz and a handful of other concentration camps have come to symbolize the Nazi killing machine in the public consciousness. Likewise, the Nazi system for imprisoning Jewish families in hometown ghettos has become associated with a single site — the Warsaw Ghetto, famous for the 1943 uprising. But these sites, infamous though they are, represent only a minuscule fraction of the entire German network, the new research makes painfully clear.

[NeonSamurai]

Well Auschwitz is special in a sense, as some of the camps were concentration camps, and 2 were death camps (the primary one being Auschwitz-Birkenau). The big problem though is that the public doesn't know the difference between the two terms. As far as I am aware no new death camps were discovered with this.

So I object to lines like "But these sites, infamous though they are, represent only a minuscule fraction of the entire German network, the new research makes painfully clear.". That is utter nonsense. Most of these other camps generally would have directed their flow of people to the death camps and subsequent slave labor camps (which became more common later in the war). The major extermination camps like Auschwitz-Birkenau, Bełżec, Sobibor, and Treblinka are pretty unique to the other camps. Those 4 camps killed roughly half of the Jews in the Holocaust. Followed by the Einsatzgruppen and slave labor camps like Dora-Mittelbau/Buchenwald which worked prisoners to death.

[geetrue]

I don't really believe in reincarnation, but I do believe in God's mercy.

It is written in the old testament and in the new testament that God will have mercy on who he will have mercy and
compassion on whoever He will have compassion ...

then Saint Paul added that it does not depend on man's deeds nor on mans desires, but simply on the mercy of God.

This is the true personality of God

It has always been my position that God the father himself sent all of those Jews to the gas chambers due to the simple
fact that there was no state of Israel in the 1930's to the 1940's and there had not been a state of Israel for many years perhaps
even since 70ad untill 1948

In order for Israel to be the state that is surrounded by her enemy, doesn't it make sense that there has to be a state of Israel?

This is very confusing I'm sure even among my own kindred, but it is just a theroy that God himself has gathered all of the Jews together
in one place for the final chapter as written in the Book of Revelations.

Perhaps the souls of those murdered with hatred by the Germans, who hated a lot of other people including gypsies and christians
and blacks etc., still live today in the present statehood of Israel.

By the way isn't 2018 the 70th year of the new Israel?

The number 70 is a Godly number and one to be respected

The smoke of Syira is on the horizon, beware that it doesn't move south after they have unity with the Muslim brotherhood of the
Israel's other neighbors.

A far higher number than the one the Jews have presented by is the one of Stalin's purging of Russia estimated
to be twenty plus million peoples, yet hardly do you ever hear about that tally do you?

[Catfish]

^ regarding fate and god's will i think this is pretty much nonsense.

A lot of jews and political or other prisoners doubted the existence of god, after the experience of the concentration camps.
This is not because of the pain and atrocities alone, but e.g. because workers who stole their fellow's shoes, survived (prisoners without shoes were considered useless and killed), while the 'better' or honest ones did not.

Regarding Stalin and his killings (not only millions of jews, but polish citizens and lots of his own russian 'kulaks' who did not work enough, in his opinion.
I do not wonder about this not being mentioned much though, after all Papa Joe was on the 'right' (allied) side. You do not write about such things when it comes to propaganda and justifying your own motivations.

[nikimcbee]

When I saw the story, I thought to myself "how could it get worse?"
I pretty much agree with you Neon.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by geetrue

<<Interesting Biblical Stuff>>

That's interesting, but the main problem with it is that some Christians were deported to death camps by the Nazis. If the holocaust was God getting rid of people he didn't like, why would devout believers be sent there?

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

That's interesting, but the main problem with it is that some Christians were deported to death camps by the Nazis.

If the holocaust was God getting rid of people he didn't like, why would devout believers be sent there?

God wasn't getting rid of people that he didn't like ... he was setting them
up to be better off with their own country back.

A country that has been argued over for centuries. Remember the crusades?

I think there were five crusades wih the Christians winning the first one and perhaps partially another one.

They lost the rest and the country eventually winds up in the hands of the Palestians
(who are in reality the dreaded Philistines)
(Israel's arch enemy of the old testament).

For prophecy to come true Israel had to regain their statehood and lay a claim to it.

I say God planned it all and worked his plan ... that it was no accident that all of those Jews died at the hands of the German regime.

Hitler was used just like many other Kings and enemies of Israel were used over the centuries to bring Israel in line with God's will.

I can't find the scripture, but this one from Isaiah 65 will have to do.

No this is the one it's just that I have the New Century bible in hand right now.

The other one I am looking for says that they (meaning Israel) will have no former memory of who they were.

This is God speaking through the prophet Isaiah

A New Time Is Coming

17 “Look, I will make new heavens and a new earth,

and people will not remember the past

or think about those things.

18 My people will be happy forever
because of the things I will make.
I will make a Jerusalem that is full of joy,
and I will make her people a delight.

19 Then I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and be delighted with my people.
There will never again be heard in that city
the sounds of crying and sadness.

20 There will never be a baby from that city
who lives only a few days.
And there will never be an older person
who doesn’t have a long life.

A person who lives a hundred years will be called young,

and a person who dies before he is a hundred will be thought of as a sinner.

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ regarding fate and god's will i think this is pretty much nonsense.

A lot of jews and political or other prisoners doubted the existence of god, after the experience of the concentration camps.
This is not because of the pain and atrocities alone, but e.g. because workers who stole their fellow's shoes, survived (prisoners without shoes were considered useless and killed), while the 'better' or honest ones did not.

Regarding Stalin and his killings (not only millions of jews, but polish citizens and lots of his own russian 'kulaks' who did not work enough, in his opinion.
I do not wonder about this not being mentioned much though, after all Papa Joe was on the 'right' (allied) side. You do not write about such things when it comes to propaganda and justifying your own motivations.

Did you know that Stalin was reported to not have killed anyone in georgia for fear that his mother would hear about it?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Vendor

The Holocaust Just Got More Shocking

Really - got it...?

[NeonSamurai]

I think it would be wise to keep religion out of the discussion when it comes to the Holocaust. It is just asking for trouble with such a sensitive subject as this one.

Also the Russian purges are quite different. For one thing, a lot of it was kept secret particularly outside of the USSR. Second it was not so much an organized institution of genocide, and the kinds of people targeted were different; though it did contain some eugenics, it was mostly about getting rid of potential political enemies.

Did you know that Stalin was reported to not have killed anyone in georgia for fear that his mother would hear about it?

Yeah right.
Can you compile the very short list of the Georgian party leadership who Stalin didn't kill or would you like to make a start on the big list of those he murdered?