I have always wondered...

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

Where are you from?

USA, and once upon a time PA thus that last bit I guess.

My mom asked me if I ever watch porn because it's illegal after watching some Bush comment about underage porn a few years back. I had to explain that not all porn is illegal. She's 87, old folks shouldn't have modern standards applied to them, as they're from a different time.

Luckily she didn't ask if I've ever been "in" porn.

[Catfish]

Obviously, regarding the OP i can only speak of Germany

I went to school in the 70ies and 80ies, and we learned of the 'Nazi' atrocities in a lot of courses and lectures, including visiting some of the concentration camps, and seeing original footage of the time, and of the liberating armies.

Which certainly led to some questions regarding our elders .. it is certainly convenient to be born long after this time, and to think of oneself as an all-knowing superior being, and of surely having been a would-be hero against dictators, if only born in those times. You usually do NOT have the hindsight of the time you are living in.

There are also a lot of memory sites, museums and graveyards, along with the holocaust memory sites, and also 'monuments of shame', if you like to call it that.

I do not know though, how and if that much is being told today in Germany, about this time. And after all there is even more german history, than the 12 years of Hitler's dictatorship.

The problem is also the allied re-education project in Germany, there was also a lot of propaganda in it, e.g. WW1 was just explained as the typical german way to declare war to the world and be generally the bad guy. If you look a bit closer it's a lot of smoke and mirrors though. Niall Ferguson's 'The pity of war' is a real eye-opener in that respect. WW1, mind you.


When i look at what is done today in the name of 'freedom', 'helping' other nations or 'defense', and how the media report about atrocities internationally (atrocities and breaking of international law depending on who did it, otherwise it's the road to freedom), and how willingly people wage wars and join them for the 'right cause', i really do not think that people have learned much.

IMHO the problem is that people die too soon - when they have learned enough about how things and propaganda really work they die, and the new kids are as dumb as those in generations before, and they make the same errors again. And again.
How can you know as a kid, that your education is 'right' ?


That said, i think there is still more thinking about the bad old times in Germany, than in most other countries of the world. I do not want to attack our english or american friends, but i seldomly see a national monument of shame about anything, in their special imperial histories.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Schroeder]

Over here each state has it's own regulations about what is tought in school. The Nazi time was quiet a big part of our history lessons where I went to school.
Even without that everybody knows about the Holocaust and war atrocities committed by German forces here, the topic is pretty omni present. TV shows, memorials etc.

[Red October1984]

Thank you for your posts Catfish and Schroeder. I appreciate it. It answers my question.

One of these days, I hope to go to Germany....I want to go to all the memorials and museums and stuff. I really want to see the U-995.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I really want to see the U-995.

Don't we all?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Catfish

The problem is also the allied re-education project in Germany, there was also a lot of propaganda in it, e.g. WW1 was just explained as the typical german way to declare war to the world and be generally the bad guy. If you look a bit closer it's a lot of smoke and mirrors though. Niall Ferguson's 'The pity of war' is a real eye-opener in that respect. WW1, mind you.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

I often wonder if that is part of what has created that sort of subculture of shame that is mentioned, I once read somewhere that the Eastern half of Germany has a bigger problem with Neo-Nazis because the GDR didn't go through the same re-education process that the FDR did. Is there any truth in that?

[Catfish]

Hello Oberon,

Originally Posted by Oberon

I often wonder if that is part of what has created that sort of subculture of shame that is mentioned, I once read somewhere that the Eastern half of Germany has a bigger problem with Neo-Nazis because the GDR didn't go through the same re-education process that the FDR did. Is there any truth in that?

Difficult to say, if it was easy to explain one might be able to do something about it .. i can only try to speak about this from the western part, and point of view.

As long as the GDR existed (or East Germany, until 1989), the official socialist theory 'over there' was that the surviving Nazis had all fled and were all living in the capitalistic western part, while in the socialistic GDR they were all pure as snowflakes and would help the Soviet Union and comrade Stalin and his successors to make the world a better place.
They also had students from abroad like from countries of the eastern soviet block, or Cuba; but indeed inofficially those foreigners were not really liked. You could say that they went on on with their way of control, dislike and dictatorship like under Hitler, but indeed now it was of course for the other side, which made it all good. The system was certainly different (at least theoretically ahem), but in the minds ..

Certainly officially hate against foreigners and the like was all suppressed and censored, but when the old GDR seized to exist in 1989, and the capitalist bright promises of wealth and occupation for everyone failed to come true, a lot of especially younger people were disappointed with both systems, and found their resort in violence and Neonazi groups.
(I will never understand though how so much people in the US and Russia can become Neonazis - they must seriously lack some perception on what it really is about lol).


There is certainly some truth with the Nazis in the west, lots of 'former' Nazis sat in leading positions in the FDR or West Germany, backed by the US, England and France; thousands of 'Nazi' physicians, technicians etc., were now working for the West, from Wernher von Braun to Walter but also lots of less known but not less brilliant scientists. French Mirage jets were flying with the further developed HE 176 Heinkel turbines and helped Israel win their war in the Levante .. lots also worked for the Soviet union though as well. Then there were those US experiments on citizens that did not seem to be far-fetched from what the Nazis did, then the OSS (which later became the CIA), working with the Nazi 'Odessa' and 'Kameradenwerk' networks to help and cover up former Nazis, collecting the remnants of the organisation Gehlen, SD etc. to work with them yaddayadda ... but i digress.

A lot of judges and well-known leaders from the 3rd Reich were again sitting in high positions in West Germany soon after the war, and when the new youth at the universities found that out, there almost was a revolution, in West Germany in 1968.
This constellation of power backed by US and other western Allies led to some sympathy in the west-german students, for the socialist GDR. And for demonstrations against the war in Vietnam, of course.


After all i think this re-education was not such a bright idea for the USA and its satellites, because frankly, now those pesky western germans would now even criticize their western liberators for shortcomings, wars and atrocities, because they were now educated and keen to criticise everyone, from their elevated and self-righteous point of view ..


Greetings,
Catfish

[Platapus]

I asked The Frau this very question a while ago. She finished her schooling in the 1970's so her answer is dated.

She told me that during the 1960's and early 1970's that History class stopped after WWI with the forming of the Wiemar Republic.

She is sure this has changed since she finished school. But WWII was never mentioned.

[Penguin]

First of all, I don't see RO's question as offending. The way I see it, is that he asked for a European/Asian POV due to the geographic proximity to Germany and Japan rather than lumping them all together.

So here's my personal, limited experience about WW2 history in school:
I attended history classes in West Germany in the 80s until the early 90s, first the "normal" history courses, then I had an focus on history, something the British call A-levels; comparable to the AP program in the US school system.
The timeframe is important to understand for two reasons. First, most parents of us were still born during WW2 and our grandparents participated directly, in a civilian and/or military role. So any old timer you met, was a witness of this time and could share some experiences if they wanted to talk about. It was also not uncommon to share these stories with kids, especiallly when we played war with our plastic soldiers. So by the time we attended our first history lessons, we could say that we already knew much oral history.

The second point is that I attended a learning facility at the time of an important historical debate, the Historikerstreit . I was lucky that I had able teachers who gave us reading material from both positions.

Same as in the US, history was/is taught progressive in schools, so we didn't reach the 1930s untill the late 9th/early10th grade. We also learned some stuff about Weimar and the 3rd Reich in politics and social science, as those are basic fundamentals, important in understanding the foundation of the Federal Republic and its political system.

Before reaching WW2 in history class, we had a focus on WW1 and its aftermatch. Contrary, to Catfish's experience, we learned it more nuanced. So we read Fritz Fischer's position on the question of the German responsibility for WW1, but also others like Mommsen. Btw: Fischer developed his thesis the way historians do: through historic research, not through some reeducation program or allied pressure. However this is a point I can write some stuff about tomorrow, when I'm less tired.

Back to the OP's question: Yes, we learned a lot about WW2 in school and also about the Holocaust. Just check the focus you guys in America put on the foundation of the USA and the Civil War, to compare it with the focus we put on 1914-1945, as it is an important part of the German history. Did we learn the whole truth? Well, we learned what was the contemporary historical state of history. Of course many things were left out if you ask me as a historical interested person (avoiding the word "history buff" to keep Hottentott calm )
A big part was about internal German politics, to understand how Hitler rose to power, to understand how life in the Reich was for its citizens and to try to understand how the big slaughter began.
We didn't learn this much about the Pacific Theater, also not too much about military operations in general, other than some key battles, like Stalingrad or the Normandy landing. An interesting aspect that was also quite absent is the economic side, for example about the role of the German industry, as well as about international economic relations, e.g. Sweden, Switzerland, the USA, etc.
Another point that I missed, was the whole aftermatch of WW2. 10th grade ended virtually in WW2. In the 11th grade we put an emphasis on different time eras and countries. So I never learned in my history class when WW2 ended.

A little about today's teaching of history in schools:
School politics are a business of the German states, so here is a link to the current school curriculum of my state: http://www.standardsicherung.schulmi...geschichte.pdf (in German only)

On page 31, we see the curriculum for WW2, I'll put up a crappy translation:

topic: National Socialism and World War 2
emphasis:
- the destruction of th Weimar Republic
- the nationalsocialistic government system; individuals and groups between comformity and resistance
- deprivation of rights, prosecution and murder of European jews, gypsies and dissidents (literally "people who think different") between 1933 and 1945
- war of extermination
- flight and resettlement in the European context

In general you can say that it is more common to discuss politics here than in the US, e.g. at dinner, in bars or at parties. So it is also ok to talk with Germans about history. When people are interested in a historic conversation, they speak openly about this time period.

last words: we are the last generation who has the ability to talk to people who lived during WW2 - use your chance folks! In 20 years, we won't have it anymore.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Don't we all?

I have seen her, she's a beauti.

Markus

[Red October1984]

Thank you all for your posts. I never would've thought that's the way they teach it. I guess i'm just used to American History classes where we have to learn about the Civil War for the 3rd time...

Ugh. It gets old. Yes. I realize what happened was important but I'm sick of hearing about it. I love the post 1900 history but before that...eh...

American History I can do. World History before 1900? Kill me now.

[Platapus]

It is also important to remember that there is a significant part of American history that is not taught in American schools.

I am sure that pretty much any country cherry-picks the history they like to teach. The advent of the Internets Tubes will make it harder to guide history education in the future.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

Thank you all for your posts. I never would've thought that's the way they teach it. I guess i'm just used to American History classes where we have to learn about the Civil War for the 3rd time...

Ugh. It gets old. Yes. I realize what happened was important but I'm sick of hearing about it. I love the post 1900 history but before that...eh...

American History I can do. World History before 1900? Kill me now.

Americans are disinterested in their pre-1900 history.

I'm sick of hearing about the British invading Australia: pre-1900.

We have a lot in common

Except perhaps a love of Gettysburg and Gods & Generals

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Platapus

It is also important to remember that there is a significant part of American history that is not taught in American schools.

I am sure that pretty much any country cherry-picks the history they like to teach. The advent of the Internets Tubes will make it harder to guide history education in the future.

That's true, but not only because of cherry-picking. It's impossible to teach all of any one country's history in a year. I admit they could try harder, though.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

That's true, but not only because of cherry-picking. It's impossible to teach all of any one country's history in a year. I admit they could try harder, though.

I just wished it were a bit more balanced. History IS the good, the bad, and the ugly.

I understand that a government wants children to grow up feeling proud of their country and frankly most younglings lack the maturity/wisdom to understand that good people sometimes to bad things and that applies to governments too.

A while ago I was talking with some of The Frau's daughter's friends (all in their early 20s) about American history. Some of them were self-identified history buffs. When I brought up Indian "Removals" of the mid 1800s and the alternating government position on Mexican labour in the early 20th century, they were astonished. None of this had been even mentioned in their history classes. They never learned about Cuba and the Philippines around the start of the 20th century.

And forget anything worthwhile about the Cold War.

But they sure learned a lot about the Civil War..Oh boy that got that covered... well almost.

No one can ever learn all the history of the US, and I don't expect a school to spend all that much time trying to cover 200+ years. But I would like to see some balance to reflect the good, the bad, and the ugly that makes up US history.

I think understanding the transgressions of the US will make it easier to understand the transgressions of other nations.

We all wear grey hats. Some a little lighter, some a little darker, but all grey.