Stop the clash of civilisations

[Méo]

....

[Oberon]

A nice sentiment, but might as well wish for the Earth to stop turning while they're at it.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

A nice sentiment, but might as well wish for the Earth to stop turning while they're at it.

Exactly...been going on since before the sands of time.

[Takeda Shingen]

Hmm. This is an 'interesting' video.

http://www.avaaz.org/en/about.php

Funded by donations from almost 30,000 Avaazers, an Avaaz team is working closely with the leadership of democracy movements in Syria, Yemen, Libya and more to get them high-tech phones and satellite internet modems, connect them to the world's top media outlets, and provide communications advice.

And we all know who is involved with those democracy movements. Here's their poll page for new directions in 2012:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/january_poll...ople_power_rb/

Something that I found in their 'Big New Directions' poll that I found unsettling.

Go political, getting inside political parties to change the system

Call me nuts, but something about political infiltration doesn't sit right with me.

EDIT: Here's the wiki article about the group:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avaaz

[Skybird]

Any such missions - idealistically motivated or differently - are neither helpful nor promising success if the give up discriminating between victims and perpetrators, cause and effect. Somebody made a movie, and the other side asnwers with chaos, torture, rape and assassination - that is not a proportionate nor a reasonable response. Calls for self-censoring freedom of speech and censoring media become loud again. Like six years ago, over the Danish cartoons, the murderous hysteria is seen as of the same severity as the action that has triggered it - IF it has triggered it, since it more seems to be that the events have been planned and staged by Salafists and Al Quaeda. The cartoonist is suddenly as evil a man as assassins, an ambassador is as evil as those torturing him to death over a movie he did not make, and Salman Rushdie just received a just consewquence when the other side imposed a call for assassination over him because he wrote a book of mediocre prose and Islam-critical content.

This petition does not discriminate this. Which is a bad failure of theirs.

I boycott thtis petition. But I will sign any petition that demands religions, inculding Islam, to accept the freedom of speech and free opinion, free media, and no special rights for Islam and any other religion to demand supression of this. In Islamic countries, Jews and Chriostzians get perpetrated, discirminated, driven away. Hate proipaganda of much wors ekind gets aired by Palestinian TV hours and hours every day. Int he West, chruches as well as Jerws are confronted with tasteless cartoons (as seen by some) and opposition, criticism - woithiut freaking out.

To speare Islam from the dewmand that it also has to learn this, means to spare it from the demand to chnage itself, and to change its supremacist self-descritpion, its racist world view, and all what if bad negative in it as well. If that is what yiou want - sign any well-meant petitions like this one, which may be well-meant, but are denying realites in an effort tgo let naivety overcome uncomfortable needs of accepting confrontation.

Accepting confrontation is good and positive and even honourful - if it is ion behalf of something of sufficient vaslue. I think free speech and secularism, preventing Islam from being given spoecial status, all this is indeed sufficently valuable and worthy to accept confrontation in defence of it.

And if needed to set up a hell of a fight.

Because without freedom, everything is nothing.

Good will is not enough, avaaz.org. Freedom, and clear discrimination between victim and perpetrator, cause and effect, is more important.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Call me nuts, but something about political infiltration doesn't sit right with me.

With voting billets you will acchieve nothing, that is for certain. the system is hijacked by some elites, the rules are tailored to serve their purpose, you cannot vote these elites out of office: and by that, democracy has become pointless.

So at least in their choice of tactis they maybe are oriented at the correct direction. Either infiltrate the system in avoidance of its rules that make certain that it will not change, or enforce a change from the outside by ignoring the system alltogether and forming an alternatrive structure in civil society that completely bypasses the system.

But my criticism one post above stands. Idealism that does not discmrinate in questions of rersponsibility and casue and effect, is no idealism, but naivety. And it necessarily causes new injustice by putting victim and perpetrator on the same level.

[CCIP]

I find it funny, Skybird, that you post long rants about non-dualism and enlightenment in one thread, and end this one here with a categorically dual division (victims and perpetrators, enemies and allies, us and them, underlyingly - human vs. nonhuman) virtually on the same day. So much for non-dualistic thinking, huh.

I withhold comment on the organization itself, and I think suspicions towards it are right. But I agree that the real clash of civilizations is going on in the heads of people who want it to be going on, conveniently serving powers-that-be that exploit these "us vs. them" divisions to great political effect. I can only continue to condemn this kind of thinking, because when you dig down deep enough, its logic ultimately works against the very people who support taking sides in this supposed clash, whichever side they fall on. Ultimately, the moment you accept that this kind of division exists, you are surrendering the very human rights you are supposed to stand for.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I find it funny, Skybird, that you post long rants about non-dualism and enlightenment in one thread, and end this one here with a categorically dual division (victims and perpetrators, enemies and allies, us and them, underlyingly - human vs. nonhuman) virtually on the same day. So much for non-dualistic thinking, huh.

You think the Buddhist view is not to defend against attack, not to discriminate between assassin and murdered victim, not to differ the guilt of the perpetrator from the innocence of the victim?

HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MARBLES...???

You have something terribly misunderstood there.

Somebody made a movie, and the other side asnwers with chaos, torture, rape and assassination - that is not a proportionate nor a reasonable response. Calls for self-censoring freedom of speech and censoring media become loud again

I cannot help but think that there is a deeper issue going on in the Muslim psyche that has not been revealed to the western culture. Muslims are in general living subjugated lives, they live under a constant pressure of Religious law that is unyielding and the prophet Mohammed seems to be the flash point that ignites there zeal.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by sidslotm

I cannot help but think that there is a deeper issue going on in the Muslim psyche that has not been revealed to the western culture. Muslims are in general living subjugated lives, they live under a constant pressure of Religious law that is unyielding and the prophet Mohammed seems to be the flash point that ignites there zeal.

Islam is totalitarian, and issues control over all levels of an individual'S life in family, job, sociall community, state. That is its purpose. "Strength by unity, strength by control", so to speak.

Everything they beolieve to know about there relgion, is based on Muhammad's claims. That why it more precisely is called Muhammeddanism. Take this fundamental stepostone away, and all the house above collapses.

Islam lives by massive forging and rejecting history, reinventing it the way it wants it to have. Opposing evidence is rejected, the time before Muhammad's appearance is just Allah's mysterious and unfathomable miracle. At the same tiome, Islam is more shine than substan ce, it is a low-quality copy of some older cult (Judiam) and Christian lithurgy, and it is a history led by the principle of violent expoansion. Nothing you really want to be proiud of when claiming to be the relgion of opeace and tolerance at the same time. So, when you believe this stuff, and at the same time see how materially superior others are, you face some very serious cognitive dissonance that you cannot solve up by reason and argument, and of which you do not like to be reminded. If somebody does, your head explodes, and your temper runs amok. You fall victim to the full bag of inner contradictions that Islam is filled up with.

-----

Always these provocations!

1. "I want to make a movie about Muhammad and his blasphemous sex life...!"
2. "I want to make a movie about Muhammad...!
3. "I want to make a movie...!"




source: Der Tagesspiegel

[soopaman2]

There is nothing more easily controlled than a divided populace.

The originator of the quote escapes me, but the sentiment sticks.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

There is nothing more easily controlled than a divided populace.

And a populace that lives in misery and thus is filled with anger - anger that can be directed at the outside. See the Palestinians. After 1948, and after lost wars, in crowded space and with little material supply, they nevertheless breed like rabbits and do all they can to torpedo the few precious occasions where maybe an agreement with Israel maybe would have been possible. Demographics is a weapon, the social pendant to an atomic bomb, and it helps you to score in the propaganda war when making photos of those many wide open hungry eyes. A Palestinian populace living in peace of mind and material prosperity with a future perspective not coming from Hamas or Fatah, is not in the interest of those leaders of Hamas and Fatah profiting from the status quo.

In all countries that once had a socalled Arab spring, now the orthodox have taken over, sometimes more sometimes less openly - but they poull the strings either oin stage or behind the curtain. In Egypt. In Libya. In Tunisia. And in sSria the opposotion, already formed by many orthodox and radical groups, gets more radicalised by external Muslims factions interfering, while Iran also has boots on the ground.

The rallies and the hysteria we see these days, this so very well organised "spontaneious" outrage, last but not least is staged by radical groups in order to fight for more influence on their behalf.

Its all manipulation in a bit for more power by these. It's an orchestrated effort by Al Quaeda as well, and Salafists. The way the US ambassadfor got illed, to me looks like a planned and organised attack with a masterplan behind, which turns it into the first successfully carried out terror strike against the US since 9/11.

The failure of Obama's policies over these ME and Islam issues is so very very complete. One could almost have compassion with him.

Almost.

It was reported that Syria has test-fired empty chemical shells in the presence of Iranian officers some days ago, it will be interesting to see what the West and Washington does once Assad stzarts to use chemicals. Will the US really intervene then, claiming the overstepping of a red line as a reason? Only to help ultraorthodox radicals to turn over in Syria as well?

Damn, I miss the cold war.

[soopaman2]

I am glad your not an American voter, then we just might get the "corporate vulture" Romney and the "medicare voucher" Ryan. I love corporate shills, I so want them to run my country, once again, I am glad you can't vote here.

Vulture and voucher 2012! The rally cry of all red staters, until they cut off your welfare checks, right red staters, you get alot more of it than blue states do.

I'd rather have a guy who did little because he knows better, than someone who wants to feed the corporate welfare system even further despite the costs to the average Joe, and the economy, and domestic jobs, that are evaporating to China, and S korea, and Vietnam etc , thanks to republican policies dating back to St. Ronald Reagan, the actor who became an economist.

How about we go back to letting the savages kill each other? (like we do in our own countries, in more civil ways)

I do not miss the cold war, see my comments on Reagan. And I bet your on the west side of the wall, if you do miss it.

Edit: Leave the freaking savages alone! they are not anyones responsibilities.

Leave them be, then they will kill each other, the west wins...Leave them be?!

[the_tyrant]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

I am glad your not an American voter, then we just might get the "corporate vulture" Romney and the "medicare voucher" Ryan. I love corporate shills, I so want them to run my country, once again, I am glad you can't vote here.

Vulture and voucher 2012! The rally cry of all red staters, until they cut off your welfare checks, right red staters, you get alot more of it than blue states do.

I'd rather have a guy who did little because he knows better, than someone who wants to feed the corporate welfare system even further despite the costs to the average Joe, and the economy, and domestic jobs, that are evaporating to China, and S korea, and Vietnam etc , thanks to republican policies dating back to St. Ronald Reagan, the actor who became an economist.

How about we go back to letting the savages kill each other? (like we do in our own countries, in more civil ways)

I do not miss the cold war, see my comments on Reagan. And I bet your on the west side of the wall, if you do miss it.

Edit: Leave the freaking savages alone! they are not anyones responsibilities.

Leave them be, then they will kill each other, the west wins...Leave them be?!

Please don't bring American politics into this mix, we will end up going off topic very easily.

To be honest, I liked Reagan too, Bedtime for Bozo was a great movie.

The rallies and the hysteria we see these days, this so very well organised "spontaneious" outrage, last but not least is staged by radical groups in order to fight for more influence on their behalf.

One of the reasons the west fails to stand up to this confusing anger is because the west is ruled by women. If you look at the Mr Average married western man, they all have one common fault, they are fore ever looking at their wrist watches to make sure they get home on time, that the damming words of "she who must be obeyed" where have you been, do not destroy his already fragile psyche. OK, I'm generalizing, but it is an inherent fault of this politically correct society we have allowed ourselves to become.

Merkels statement about "multiculturalism is not working" is right. But if a man had said that there would have been a global storm of biblical proportions. My point is, that's just whats needed. The Muslims need, I stress the word need, to know they cannot do unto others as they see fit, even in the name of Allah.

Muslims play an important part in British life these days, this is a positive from my personal viewpoint. But they still need to know there is a line that cannot be crossed. Deportation is a strong deterrent that needs to be used from time to time. The west needs to understand, this Muslim anger is never ever going to go away, it will be with them until the last day.