German court bans circumcision

[Catfish]

But it is not about religion.
If a god can only part his followers from others by checking for circumcision or the "lost leg" i mentioned ?

I thought i had made this clear:
I have nothing against a person who does whatever with his/her own body - for religious or other reasons when he/she can decide him/herself.

A 2-year-old child can't.

Circumcision at the age of 2 is causing pain (later remembering subconsciously or not) without the child having any chance to understand it nor to decide about it. And it is not about removing an appendix, indeed it is a bit senseless nowadays. If you go for cleanliness, if you are afraid as a parent to tell your kid how to wash the body at places "that may not be mentioned", you will probably also fail in other education.

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

When I read the news, I had similar thoughts. On the other hand, you can't always choose where your battle takes place, and I hope Germany holds firm on this.

If the Jews do play the cards as you suggest, I finally understand why Japan sticks firm to the position that things settled by treaty are done. People always say the solution to the Far East history problem is for Japan to make Germany style apologies complete with Germany style compensations. But here we see it. No matter how many apologies you make or how sincere they are, people never are satisfied even if they formally accept. Aggress them even once, even on something that you are in the right on, and they drag everything back out of the history bin to emotion-load the argument in their favor.

At some point, you have to stop letting apologies and history keep pulling youa round the nose.

Or perhaps the Jews can prove me wrong here by not playing that card. I understand they have to throw a temper tantrum first but when they are done perhaps they can take the chance to accept that their practices have to evolve with the times.

It's not about playing cards and temper tantrums, and Germany most certainly can choose whether to have this battle.

But it is not about religion.

But it is for some people.
You only have to look at the background.
For some people this is a chance to attack a religion or all religion, for others it is a chance to defend their religion or someone elses.
What is more disturbing in the background is some of the really nasty groups which latch on to the wider debate.

[AngusJS]

You don't own your children. The only body that you own is your own.

Feel free to snip, pierce and tattoo yourself to your hearts content, for whatever reason. Don't force the same on your children.

"But it's part of my tradition/religion." Yes, it's part of your tradition or religion. Your child knows nothing of your ideology, and cannot accept or reject it.

If these traditions or religions are so important, why do people insist on cheapening them by physically forcing children to join them? Wouldn't the religion/tradition be more meaningful if its followers actually chose to follow it of their own free will?

How arrogant do you have to be, to be certain that not only were you lucky enough to join/be forced to join the correct religion, but that your child will eventually see just how correct your religion is, too? Maybe, just maybe, what works for you won't work for them. Maybe they should follow their own conscience and choose the path that makes sense to them.

Don't force a permanent change in your child's body to be in line with your ideology, when you know that he might wish that he had been able to choose for himself, rather than have it imposed upon him.

This is so blindingly obvious, but yet again religion keeps creating problems like this which otherwise would have been solved and forgotten ages ago.

[MH]

The problem is in your eyes because you want it to be a problem.

(another secular guy who thinks that just by being secular and uncircumcised somehow makes him more advanced and Nobel prize nominate)

You don't own your children. The only body that you own is your own.

Oy vey

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

You don't own your children. The only body that you own is your own.

Feel free to snip, pierce and tattoo yourself to your hearts content, for whatever reason. Don't force the same on your children.

"But it's part of my tradition/religion." Yes, it's part of your tradition or religion. Your child knows nothing of your ideology, and cannot accept or reject it.

If these traditions or religions are so important, why do people insist on cheapening them by physically forcing children to join them? Wouldn't the religion/tradition be more meaningful if its followers actually chose to follow it of their own free will?

How arrogant do you have to be, to be certain that not only were you lucky enough to join/be forced to join the correct religion, but that your child will eventually see just how correct your religion is, too? Maybe, just maybe, what works for you won't work for them. Maybe they should follow their own conscience and choose the path that makes sense to them.

Don't force a permanent change in your child's body to be in line with your ideology, when you know that he might wish that he had been able to choose for himself, rather than have it imposed upon him.

This is so blindingly obvious, but yet again religion keeps creating problems like this which otherwise would have been solved and forgotten ages ago.

Well said, AngusJS.

[August]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

Don't force a permanent change in your child's body to be in line with your ideology, when you know that he might wish that he had been able to choose for himself, rather than have it imposed upon him.

This is so blindingly obvious, but yet again religion keeps creating problems like this which otherwise would have been solved and forgotten ages ago.

And yet most atheists, at least the ones on this board, seem to have absolutely no problem with drugging a child to delay the onset of puberty in order to provide more time to convince it that the gender they were born with is somehow wrong and should be changed, by surgery, before they reach adulthood. Others have no problem with piercing the ears of infants but I guess it all depends on which ideology you subscribe to.

Personally I have no problem with the procedure. Had it done to me soon after I was born and believe me it's no big deal.

[MH]

Me...each time i look at my dick have irresistible urge to become religious fanatic...cant help it...otherwise i would consider being Swedish.

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by August

And yet most atheists, at least the ones on this board, seem to have absolutely no problem with drugging a child to delay the onset of puberty in order to provide more time to convince it that the gender they were born with is somehow wrong and should be changed, by surgery, before they reach adulthood. Others have no problem with piercing the ears of infants but I guess it all depends on which ideology you subscribe to.

Personally I have no problem with the procedure. Had it done to me soon after I was born and believe me it's no big deal.

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

You don't own your children. The only body that you own is your own.

Feel free to snip, pierce and tattoo yourself to your hearts content, for whatever reason. Don't force the same on your children.

"But it's part of my tradition/religion." Yes, it's part of your tradition or religion. Your child knows nothing of your ideology, and cannot accept or reject it.

If these traditions or religions are so important, why do people insist on cheapening them by physically forcing children to join them? Wouldn't the religion/tradition be more meaningful if its followers actually chose to follow it of their own free will?

How arrogant do you have to be, to be certain that not only were you lucky enough to join/be forced to join the correct religion, but that your child will eventually see just how correct your religion is, too? Maybe, just maybe, what works for you won't work for them. Maybe they should follow their own conscience and choose the path that makes sense to them.

Don't force a permanent change in your child's body to be in line with your ideology, when you know that he might wish that he had been able to choose for himself, rather than have it imposed upon him.

This is so blindingly obvious, but yet again religion keeps creating problems like this which otherwise would have been solved and forgotten ages ago.

There are multiple factors here. This is one of them, but this belongs in the realm of debate. If you think that circumcision of infant males is ill fitting for today's world, then say so and explain why. You may even, given time, win the debate. Religious norms do change over time, even Jewish ones.

But I think there is a serious problem when Germany bypasses the debate process and just moves to make it illegal. What happens then if it turns out you have not won the debate? At present circumcision of infant males is central to the issue of Jewish identity (i can't really speak about its significance in Islam, and so I will not mention how things may appear to Muslims), and Germany, of all places, is to say that this has to change.

That in short Germans consider Judaism as it is practiced to be incompatible with German society. Excuse me, but what a message.

So what if, since there has been no major debate on the issue, Jews don't think this is a tolerable decision, and that there is no room for compromise to accommodate this law? Is that it then? Jews are again not welcome in Germany?

This is a serious matter, and Germany is at risk of making a big mistake.

I think if such a thing as this is to change it should follow the following order:

1. widespread debate producing a sea change in attitudes
2. jews (and muslims) begin in increasing numbers to delay circumcision until old enough to take responsibility for own decision
3. some countries begin legislating to enforce what is now only a minor practice
4. germany legislates the same.

[VipertheSniper]

Originally Posted by August

And yet most atheists, at least the ones on this board, seem to have absolutely no problem with drugging a child to delay the onset of puberty in order to provide more time to convince it that the gender they were born with is somehow wrong and should be changed, by surgery, before they reach adulthood. Others have no problem with piercing the ears of infants but I guess it all depends on which ideology you subscribe to.

Personally I have no problem with the procedure. Had it done to me soon after I was born and believe me it's no big deal.

You conviniently leave out that those discussion weren't about all children, but those with disorders of sex differentiation.

[MH]

@joegrundman question is why this should be an issue for debate since it is no more that purely theoretical mantra when taking into account the health risk or you know...the million $ i might miss.
It certainly not worth pushing it on any one besides possibly satisfying people who have nothing to do with it and seem very ignorant about the prosiger ...or maybe some others who might want some minorities out of Germany...which is another issue or maybe not.

If you go recall the topic it wasn't really about that, so I guess its just another strawman

[AVGWarhawk]

What's worse than lobsters on your piano? Crabs on your organ.

Thanks for the tip.


Sorry fellas...could not resist.

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by MH

@joegrundman question is why this should be an issue for debate since it is no more that purely theoretical mantra when taking into account the health risk or you know...the million $ i might miss.
It certainly not worth pushing it on any one besides possibly satisfying people who have nothing to do with it and seem very ignorant about the prosiger ...or maybe some others who might want some minorities out of Germany...which is another issue or maybe not.

well, the "wait until older" argument is not completely trivial, and fits better into modern standards of behaviour. It is not completely unimaginable that the norm changes at some point in the future so that circumcision occurs at an older age eg bar mitzvah age. But i think a change of this nature will be taken because the Jewish communities have themselves decided to, and not because Germany has decided it's barbaric.

In any case unlike skybird who offers 50:50 odds on this passing, i offer only 1:20 odds on this passing. I am very sure that this will be shot down with extreme prejudice once it gets to Berlin.