Okla. Woman Shoots, Kills Intruder: 911 Operators Say It's Okay to Shoot

[tater]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Or they could have come to kill her. Or hold her child for ransom. Or kidnap her. Or conduct a home-invasion style robbery. The list goes on. You just seemed so assured that the crime was sexual in nature that I figured to ask if you had some additional information on the event.

I did not say they came to rape her, I said at the very least they came to rape her. Worse violence also possible, my point was that ANY home invasion when the perps have the expectation of meeting the resident during their crime has to occur under the assumption that the perps mean grave bodily harm to anyone inside. If they were ONLY after goods, they'd come like the vast majority of burglars***8212;during the work day.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by tater

I did not say they came to rape her, I said at the very least they came to rape her.

that was my understanding of your comment.


we all know full well that they didnt bring a 12" hunting knife to help her change diapers and offer their condolences.

unless of course it was the late husband's 12" hunting knife they had been borrowing and they just really really really wanted to give it back like right now.

but something tells me thats not the case

[tater]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

What could a newly widowed teenage mom with a new infant ever be doing out on a workday as that would only be done by......
some non any or all?
pick the two possibly correct answers and remove the two definately incorrect answers and try again.


Follow the source.... it was the middle of the day on new years eve.
That means you are making an assumption about an assumption that is made by you on your faulty interpretatation of information

Ah, poor writing. Eve means evening, or did when I took writing and grammar. Regardless, it's a holiday when any burglar would expect the victims to be home regardless of the time of day, NOT a work day (M-F, 8-6, say). When anyone I know wants to make plans to meet on New Year's Eve DAY, they always add the "day" because if they invite me over for a beer "new year's eve" I'll come, you know, in the evening.

Agreed, but tater wasn't satisfied with that and felt the need to ratchet up the rhetoric to sentationalise it.

No, it was a home invasion. When perps case the place (they did), and intentionally attack when the people are home (any weekend day, or any night (assuming they are not otherwise aware that the victims all work nights or weekends)), there is the presumption (a good one) that they mean harm to the homeowner/resident. If they meant no harm, and wanted goods, they come during the work week. You will find that burglary stats back this up. Most (the vast majority) US burglaries happen during the regular work week and work hours. They also last a surprisingly short period of time. Break in, and leave within a handful of minutes.

Coming when you expect people to be home is a de facto presumption of intent to harm. US law in most states agree, which is why she's not at all charged. That's the point of allowing this kind of self-defense in the home by law. The ;law in fact makes it clear that the perp has no standing to even claim he had no intent to harm, his presence inside a home without permission is proof of violent intent, and explicit permission for the resident to use deadly force.

So I am sensationalizing nothing. As I said above, rape was the least she should expect given armed intruders who knew she was home. I said "least" because rape doesn't require that they take her life, and there would be little reason for violence that would not take her life (if they'd be willing to assault her for no reason, then why not rape her?). NOte that that doesn't mean there is any certainty they would have, but she had no choice but to assume that this was the case. Failure to make this assumption is a very bad bet.

She did everyone a favor, they should give her an award.

[GoldenRivet]

IMHO it is dangerous to distinguish between intruders who intend to harm the occupants and intruders who do not intend to harm the occupants.

there is no distinction IMO

intruders - it must be assumed for the sake of your own life - intend to harm persons or property or both within the home.

[soopaman2]

As a legal firearms owner in a bad state to own them in I asked about this scenario to a cop buddy of mine.

He told me if I shot an intruder he would be forced to arrest me for manslaughter. He thinks it is crap, as our gun control laws are draconian here. Easier for a hood rat to get a gun, than an upstanding citizen.

He told me, not all states have "castle" laws.

I am glad most others haven't had their rights taken yet.

[GoldenRivet]

given my recent experiences... everything in New Jersey is draconian.

[Penguin]

Could it be that these (in)famous Castle Laws do not apply to this situation?
Since we are talking about an armed intruder self-defense laws would apply to this case imo.

However there are some idiotic sentences out there where judges underestiminate the lethality of a knife.
I don't know how judges would see it though if you don't give out a warning before using lethal force, but in this case you have given away the tactical advantage: your position and your armament status which are both unknown to the intruder.

I did not say they came to rape her, I said at the very least they came to rape her.

So you don't think the oxycontin hicks were after the dead husbands meds then?

Ah, poor writing. Eve means evening, or did when I took writing and grammar.

Christmas eve means christmas eve, new years eve means new years eve.
2pm new years eve means 2pm new years eve which is daytime and daylight unless you live in the land of the midnight sun.

Regardless, it's a holiday when any burglar would expect the victims to be home regardless of the time of day

Holidays are good for burglars because peoples routines are off any many houses will be vacant for days on end.

When perps case the place (they did), and intentionally attack when the people are home (any weekend day, or any night (assuming they are not otherwise aware that the victims all work nights or weekends)), there is the presumption (a good one) that they mean harm to the homeowner/resident. If they meant no harm, and wanted goods, they come during the work week.

Have you any evidence to show this teenage mother was ever working to flesh out your claim a little bit.

Coming when you expect people to be home is a de facto presumption of intent to harm.

Is it?
You seem to be doing a lot of assumptions and presumptions with either very little to back them up, or even worse, with evidence that contradicts your assumptions
If their intention was that clear why were they banging on the front door in broad daylight for over twenty minutes?

So I am sensationalizing nothing.

But you most certainly are, and on top of that you are ignoring many glaring inconsistancies in the story which should raise questions about the assumptions you have instantly jumped to.
Just for starters. considering their "first" meeting was less than a week before how many years has this young lady had contacts with the deceased for?

She did everyone a favor, they should give her an award.

Maybe, maybe not. But going on your way of thinking you would be handing out awards to every sort of criminal nut like candy simply because you do not view things before making your assumptions.

Still one good thing, isn't it nice that the second suspect turned himself in because his paretns told him to. P.erhaps if he had listened to more of what his parents told him then prescription drugs wouldn't have been such a problem

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

like something Clint Eastwood said in one of his movies...

When you kill a man you have to make a split second decision to take everything he has away from him, to take everything he will ever have away from him, to reduce everything he ever could be to nothing.

Personally, im of the thought of putting the mangy animal down and then ill sleep like a baby. He won't be bothering me, or anyone else either again, and the world is a better place without them; and I sleep MUCH better knowing I'm safe.

The thing.. the real thing is, having the courage of conviction. To make the decision, and follow through. A lot of people can't do that.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

given my recent experiences... everything in New Jersey is draconian.

meany!

It is nice where I live, far enough from Philly and NYC to get peace and decent property tax rates (highest in the nation thank you)

Our handgun laws are crap. you will see more "tyrones" with weapons than upstanding citizens. Plus the lack of self defense laws, they assume we should just bend over and let Tyrone and Jamaal rob us blind, then thank them for it. Because if we so much as punch them, we go to jail and get sued.

God bless Texas.

Nice link Ducimus, do you remember that crazy coot a little while back who murdered some kid because he thought he had walked on his lawn and somehow belieived that "castle laws" mean you can shoot kids you think walked on your lawn?

[Ducimus]

The reality is castle law doesnt apply to your lawn. Only if they enter your place of residence without your permission. I provided that link because it was an eastwood film with him saying the exact opposite of what GoldenRivet quoted.

Ill will say straight up though, anyone breaks into my house at night? They'll be leaving in a body bag if Mr Mossberg has any say in it.

The thing is, i have ZERO regard for a scumbags life. None... At... all. regardless of race, color, creed, gender or age. In my eye, all scumbags are equally worthless.

[GoldenRivet]

@Soopaman2

i must admit... the part of Jersey i was in was ghetto fabulous and a place where shipping containers go to die. (Newark, Jersey City and surrounding)

I saw more arrests in the 3 months i was there than i have seen anywhere else TOTAL in 32 years 10 months of living.

As a former airline pilot i have stayed in many many hotels in many many different parts of the country... but Jersey is the first place i heard "FREEZE! POLICE!!!" right outside my hotel door.

I drove through urban areas as large as my entire home town where the only signs not written in Arabic were the street signs and my white face was greeted with a sneer and a scowl at every corner.

however... my journeys did bring me to places in Jersey that seemed devoid of all but country roads and the golden brown trees and tiny river tributaries that surrounded them.

so yes... there are pretty parts of new jersey... like perhaps 3 of them

[soopaman2]

Huh?

In 1997, Larry Harris of Illinois broke into a bar owned by Jessie Ingram. Ingram, the victim of several break-ins, had recently set a trap around his windows to deter potential burglars. Harris, 37, who was under the influence of both alcohol and drugs, must have missed the warning sign prominently displayed in the window. He set off the trap as he entered the window, electrocuting himself. The police refused to file murder charges. Harris's family saw it differently, however, and filed a civil suit against Ingram. A jury originally awarded the Harris family $150,000. Later, the award was reduced to $75,000 when it was decided Harris should share at least half of the blame.

http://www.legalzoom.com/lawsuits-se...olous-lawsuits

A few other American idiot stories there.


This one made me grin as well.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1711925/posts
If you don't want to click then here is the short of it.

Man tries to burglarize house, gets warned to leave, legal gun owner shoots once (with a full mag) scumbag sues.

If said scum loses it only costs him 500$ court fees. He expects to get paid for being somewhere he had NO RIGHT to be...

This is our country.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

Man tries to burglarize house, gets warned to leave, legal gun owner shoots once (with a full mag) scumbag sues.

And what is one of the 4 big rules on Firearm safety?

Never point a gun at anything your not willing to destroy.

He didn't destroy his target. If he had, there would have been no lawsuit, (Dead men tell no tales. ) As anyone is well within their rights to defend himself within their place of residence assuming the castle laws in the state are amiable.