PETA Plans An Adult Site

[Castout]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Want to stop the objectification of women? Stop trying to sissyfy men and instead teach them that control starts with self. A man who can control himself has no need to objectify a woman.

A man who likes the thoughts of women as sexual object and sexual object only are probably insecure man himself, lacking confidence that he is worthy of a spouse love. This is probably due to past bad relationship with his own mother which left him hurt and angry and he's taking that anger to any women.

No one is trying to sissify men btw. What are you talking about.

It is true these women volunteered but as you said some women do not know better and willingly jump at the chance to make some money at the cost of their self worth. Or they could be pressed economically into volunteering.
Some of these women are victim of programming. That is men's programming that they are merely a sexual being that exists to please the male gender. Stupid women magazine with questionable journalism quality and culture and industry that are shaped by men in position of power are but a few causes.
Gender equality would erase this in the long run but even in 21st century like it or not it is still largely a man's world that we live in.

I'm not saying women are the same as men because they are not by nature. And should not be the same. I'm saying that equal education, social, economic and political opportunities will make women position to be stronger in society and bring more benefits and balance to this now largely man's world which is often ego centric. And ego is always a foolish thing. I even believe women would make better leaders because they are more sensitive and objective. I even believe that mankind will see less war with women taking most top positions.

That is until men can reach their enlightenment and become free of the ego centric man that most of us men are. Until that day women make much better leader.

I also believe for every stupid women there's a big chance there's a stupid man behind it. And for every stupid women there's 10 more stupid men.

[CaptainHaplo]

Castout - I can't speak to where you are from, but men in the US have been under attack for being men for decades. The end result is "sissyfication" - men who are not recognizable as such, but hold more in common with women than they do with their counterparts of the recent past.

Let me give you a few examples of what I mean....

Less than a half century ago, the stars in Hollywood were men like Kirk Douglas and John Wayne. Nowadays its guys that walk with a swish - like Johnny Depp and Leo DiCaprio..... Can you seriously say you don't see a difference in the amount of T guys like The Duke had vs "Romeo"?

Its fashionable for "men" to wear makeup. I am talking straight men, not homosexuals. "guyliner"... "guyliner"?!?!? Are you kidding me? Had someone ever suggested that John Wayne wear eyeliner and they would have been nursing a sore jaw as they picked themselves up off the floor.

Today's modern "man" is supposed to be "in touch with his feminine side". Bull chips! Men aren't supposed to hunt - oh the barbarity! If your accosted and mugged, your supposed to meekly surrender and then call the cops, not belt your attacker in his teeth and let him wake up with your foot on his neck while you wait on the cops. Violence, after all, never solves anything - so we are told. If that were true, then the first war between men would never have ended..... but I digress.

Purses for men. Yes - its a purse. The guy is supposed to wear it on his shoulder just like a chick does with her handbag. But because its a "man" bag its supposed to be cool. Good luck with that....

A good number of "men" today couldn't change a flat tire on their car, much less the brakes.

Go to a US walmart and look at how many hair styling products there are for men. Then again - I guess they need something to carry around in their "man bags".... Probably has enough room in there to get a hair dryer in too....

Many salons are advertising mani/pedi's for men.

Sissyfication - trying to turn men into quasi-women.

Socially - its happening in the US. Guess they have to take out the real men somehow - couldn't do it with physical war - so its the war of gender now.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Castout - I can't speak to where you are from, but men in the US have been under attack for being men for decades. The end result is "sissyfication" - men who are not recognizable as such, but hold more in common with women than they do with their counterparts of the recent past.

Let me give you a few examples of what I mean....

Less than a half century ago, the stars in Hollywood were men like Kirk Douglas and John Wayne. Nowadays its guys that walk with a swish - like Johnny Depp and Leo DiCaprio..... Can you seriously say you don't see a difference in the amount of T guys like The Duke had vs "Romeo"?

Its fashionable for "men" to wear makeup. I am talking straight men, not homosexuals. "guyliner"... "guyliner"?!?!? Are you kidding me? Had someone ever suggested that John Wayne wear eyeliner and they would have been nursing a sore jaw as they picked themselves up off the floor.

Today's modern "man" is supposed to be "in touch with his feminine side". Bull chips! Men aren't supposed to hunt - oh the barbarity! If your accosted and mugged, your supposed to meekly surrender and then call the cops, not belt your attacker in his teeth and let him wake up with your foot on his neck while you wait on the cops. Violence, after all, never solves anything - so we are told. If that were true, then the first war between men would never have ended..... but I digress.

Purses for men. Yes - its a purse. The guy is supposed to wear it on his shoulder just like a chick does with her handbag. But because its a "man" bag its supposed to be cool. Good luck with that....

A good number of "men" today couldn't change a flat tire on their car, much less the brakes.

Go to a US walmart and look at how many hair styling products there are for men. Then again - I guess they need something to carry around in their "man bags".... Probably has enough room in there to get a hair dryer in too....

Many salons are advertising mani/pedi's for men.

Sissyfication - trying to turn men into quasi-women.

Socially - its happening in the US. Guess they have to take out the real men somehow - couldn't do it with physical war - so its the war of gender now.

Ah I see your point. Many men have become a bit more feminine nowadays. That's true. But no one is making them such.

In my honest opinion men could need a little more sensitivity and being less ego centric. Not saying having to do away with ego altogether but basically stop doing foolish things for the sake of ego. By foolish I mean justifying wrongdoing simply because it brought pleasure and [false] pride.
Men need to be smarter and wisen up and to actually start behaving like a mature person instead a 16 year old brat at the age of 30-50.

On the other hand some women nowadays do need to learn how to be a women imo.

Each has a distinct role in society and each gender could learn from the other to improve. Men could use more empathy for one while women could use stronger character.

A female Martin Luther King Jr anyone? Or a male mother Teresa?

I'm willing to bet some money that currently, generally speaking, comparable women make better low to medium level boss(leaders/managers).

Let me give you a few examples of what I mean....

Someone needs a visit to reality.

[CCIP]

Because more testosterone and macho is a great solution to all the world's problems, of course.

If we're on the subject of porn, that's actually one of the things specifically wrong with it. Nothing to do with sissification, and everything to do with portraying men as behaving like controlling, sex-crazed and full of macho. That's the real objectification. Man and woman aren't a thing or a set of definite features you can point to. Both are a spectrum of physical attributes and behaviour patterns, and being blind to that fact is where the real objectification lies.

I should also point out that having known some men with purses and hair products, I saw far more fake macho out of many of them than out of more ordinary, cool-headed blokes. I don't think you can tie hair care, purses and sissification together in any coherent fashion. What does tie together both macho and sissiness, both hair care and spending extraordinary effort to look like a trucker, is something else entirely. I think the real issue is that anyone preoccupied too much with issues of identity and defending their own take on some concrete universal ideal of man or woman - whether their man is a muscular hulk who punches intruders, or a purse-carrying drama queen - is actually almost guaranteed to be an insecure person who is wasting productive energy while trying to compensate. A real man or woman is one who isn't preoccupied with who they are and what standard they ought to conform to, but one who lives productively according to whatever body and psyche they were given, rather than someone else's idea of it.

[CaptainHaplo]

You prove my point, CCIP.

"A real man or woman is one who isn't preoccupied with who they are and what standard they ought to conform to, but one who lives productively according to whatever body and psyche they were given, rather than someone else's idea of it."

The natural state of man is an aggressor. We are the hunters, women are the gatherers. We are the "there is a problem, here is how we fix it", while women are "here is how I feel about the problem".

The fact that men are being pushed into behaviors and actions more becoming the female natural state is exacly why there is a correlation.

Just because a man chooses to do something "sensative" or whatnot on occasion does not make him less of a man. However, when certain societal forces (like fashion - for example) try to guide men into more feminine looks or behaviors, then its a slow attempt at sissification.

"Because more testosterone and macho is a great solution to all the world's problems, of course. "

There is a huge difference between having testosterone and being macho. Its not that every guy should be a truck driving son of a gun - but the issue is that being a truck driving sone of a gun is now looked down upon. People are who they are by nature, yet while we are supposed to accept the boys and girls who want to wear clothing of the opposite gender, society sticks its nose up in the air at the "macho" guy who just is living his life his way. Truck driver (a fat bum), biker (troublemaker), country boy with a pickup (hick with a shotgun), etc. They are all thought of in a more negative light. Why? Because there is an undercurrent of desire to get rid of the rugged, take no bullcrap mindset that certain types of men exhibit.

As for possessing a set of gonads being a fix for all thats wrong in the world, no its not. But then again, most of the political problems of this world could be easily solved if the people in charge had some intestinal fortitude, so in many situations - it wouldn't hurt.

You prove my point, CCIP.

He proves a point, the point is about you......

I think the real issue is that anyone preoccupied too much with issues of identity and defending their own take on some concrete universal ideal of man or woman - whether their man is a muscular hulk who punches intruders, or a purse-carrying drama queen - is actually almost guaranteed to be an insecure person who is wasting productive energy while trying to compensate.

Though he could have gone funnier and taken the "male ideal" according to Haplo down the lines of the Golden Age of Hollywood when a bloke called Marion hung aroung with a macho guy called Rock.
As for men with makeup surely that would be shot to pieces by those old folks with lots of make up and purses and lovely delicate bling who wouldn't just belt their attacker in the teeth, they would cut the head off as a trophy, rape their women then burn down the town for good measure. bloody girly men with make up eh, bunch of sissies

CCIP proved the point, Haplo is one of those people with serious personal issues who is trying to compensate, though it could be added that the relationships and "family" issues mentioned earlier are pretty much textbook "newly single bloke acting it up after a bad relationship meltdown".

[Penguin]

@Tribes: brilliant piece on the make-up part - you spare me to write my boring stuff about this issue! To be fair: the last paragraph doesn't quite fit though, as Haplo has an alternative concept of relationships as far as I've read here.

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

The natural state of man is an aggressor. We are the hunters, women are the gatherers. We are the "there is a problem, here is how we fix it", while women are "here is how I feel about the problem".

Oh, this is so 10000 BC!
There were reasons why male were hunters, because of more physical power. However there were also (granted only few) societies where the role model was vice versa.
And you don't want to say that any farmer (=gatherer) is a pussy?

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Its not that every guy should be a truck driving son of a gun - but the issue is that being a truck driving sone of a gun is now looked down upon. People are who they are by nature, yet while we are supposed to accept the boys and girls who want to wear clothing of the opposite gender, society sticks its nose up in the air at the "macho" guy who just is living his life his way. Truck driver (a fat bum), biker (troublemaker), country boy with a pickup (hick with a shotgun), etc. They are all thought of in a more negative light. Why? Because there is an undercurrent of desire to get rid of the rugged, take no bullcrap mindset that certain types of men exhibit.

I agree, only arrogant idiots look down on truckers, bikers or country boys. Probably the same who would never say this to their faces.
FYI there are female truckers, bikers and country girls who would kick the same ass when they were called out...

[CCIP]

Just to clarify, I in no way look down on truck drivers or other people who either have 'manly' occupations or looks. I have a huge respect for those people and count many among my friends. I'm just pointing out the stereotype that logically opposes a 'sissified' man, and in no way do I mean offense to anyone who's a truck driver, or for that matter a personal trainer or any other sort of hulk, or otherwise stereotypically manly man. I just don't see them as any more of a man than your average joe, an effemiate artist type, or Stephen Hawking. Because it is indeed not 10,000 BC.

[Penguin]

@CCIP: I didn't interpret your words as anti-trucker or arrogant towards "manly men". I got it that you referred to people who dress-up to look macho.
I also have a despise for metrosexual pussies that try to look rugged by buying a mesh cap - maybe I have this in common with Haplo. I also despise a tough-guy arsehole attitude some people use to cover their inner insecurity - guess I have this in common with you. As you wrote: anyone should act on his own mind and not according to some preoccupied mindset.

The strongest guy in the world that I know is a gay gothic friend of me. Not because of physical strength, though he recently stopped a 6 on 1 stomping on his own (so far for sissy make-up guys), but because he accompanies people in hospital where he works when they die, often as the only person as often relatives can't cope with it or are simply not there.
This is real toughness and strength!

(and fu to anybody who thinks he does this out of some kind of morbid fascination!)

To be fair:....

Did you note the word "newly"?

Good point about the gatherers, all them sissy men doing the easy womens work eh.
Do you think those hunter gatherers still remaining today have the women taking issue over their men spicing up their appearances with makeup to look nice.
Its a modern curse ain't it, this moral decline of manlyness
Whatever next? girly men wearing earings
Lets face it every single one of Haplos "modern trends" of sissys he complains about there stretches back throughout recorded history

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Purses for men. Yes - its a purse. The guy is supposed to wear it on his shoulder just like a chick does with her handbag. But because its a "man" bag its supposed to be cool. Good luck with that....

If you see a guy carrying a purse or wearing a fannypack, odds are he is carrying.

[CaptainMattJ.]

What people tend to forget is that we are animals. The human species is an animal species like everything else, with instincts, and a natural role in society for both sexes.

we see it all the time in the animal kingdom. The males do the hunting, killing and bring back the food, whilst the mother ferociously protect offspring. However more "civilized" we get, we will still have the natural urge to reproduce, mate, find companionship, ect. And the natural instincts that came with evolution will still be relevant. In males, the brain is prebuilt with the natural instinct to fufill the hunter role; provide and protect. Woman will also have a more natural ability to deal with babies and the other things on the other end of the spectrum that the male does not fufill, but is required.

The ignorant people will simply try to change roles more freely because of whatever reason they see fit. Try to make men more sensitive and docile, when that just goes against everything we have evolved into. Woman shouldnt be dominated or looked down upon in the society that weve built. But men, honestly, shouldnt work to become so docile.

We are still strongly physically attracted to one another. Woman still like big strong men and men like beautiful and curvy woman. Because while we like to think we have greater purpose, the reality is that life exists to reproduce and make more life. Life exists to conquer the universe. And sexual attraction will always be relevant, and while weve grown past thinking of woman solely as sex objects, we will still naturally think of sex regardless.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ.

And sexual attraction will always be relevant, and while weve grown past thinking of woman solely as sex objects, we will still naturally think of sex regardless.

When all y'all catch on to the fact that it's the "object" part of "sex object" that's the real problem, and not the "sex" part, then we'll be getting somewhere.

I object to being treated like an object, period. Whether sex is involved or not is completely beside the point.

What people tend to forget is that we are animals. The human species is an animal species like everything else, with instincts, and a natural role in society for both sexes.
we see it all the time in the animal kingdom. The males do the hunting, killing and bring back the food, whilst the mother ferociously protect offspring

Oh dear, the first 10 words go okay, but then I think someone should call in Attenborough to give MattJ a few basics of the natural world and its many variations.
The large predators should give him some very well known and obvious pause for reflection before he even bothers to look at the multitude of examples which shoot his assumptions about "natural roles" to pieces.