Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[Redwine]

Time Traveller

You rocks !!!


Sensor 1, Sensor 2....... are Bold 1 type, Bold 2 type......

Great if you can add a line to set Bold_counter into Bold_launcher.
It is the bold quantity onboard.

[Col7777]

That sounds more like it CB, can you post both your Sim & Sensor files please, I like the sound of all that.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Col7777

That sounds more like it CB, can you post both your Sim & Sensor files please, I like the sound of all that.

cheers Col

haven't got access to my site at the moment-- lost my password for the site and the guy who i rent the space from is out of contact at the moment

the entire set up is just

increasing the minimum ranges for all the hydrophones (including the generic A_hydrophone) to 1000

(all other AI_sensors.dat entrys as stock)

and this sim.cfg


[Mech]
Waves amplitude=0.4 ;[0,1]
Waves attenuation=0.02 ;>=0

[AI Cannons]
Max error angle=20 ;[deg]
Max fire range=5000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=22 ;[s]

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=1000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=7 ;[s]

[AI detection]
Lost contact time=6 ;[min]

[Visual]
Detection time=0.5 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1) at (sensitivity * max range) we have a double detection time.
Fog factor=0.3 ;[>=0]
Light factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=400 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=15 ;[kt]

[Radar]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=3.0 ;[m2]

[Hydrophone]
range factor=1 ;[>=0]
fog factor=0 ;[>=0]
light factor=0 ;[>=0]
waves factor=0.2 ;[>=0]
speed factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
enemy speed=0 ;[>=0]
aspect=0 ;[>=0]
noise factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
sensor height factor=0 ;[>=0]
already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]
decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

[Sonar]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.50 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=10 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=2

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by CB..

i can see i am liable to end up being the "lone voice in the wildneress" again on the sensor edits-- but it's allways good to have an alternative point of view on gameplay--so here goes i'll hold my ground--

Why alone voice ? all we are together in this !!

Originally Posted by CB..

and got into position ahead of it--- submerged-at silent- at around 7000 metres the green sub went orange---at around 4000 metres it went red--"we have been etc etc" and it stayed full on red ALL THE TIME---

you really have ubber sensors now !!! thats too much !

Originally Posted by CB..

i was caught well and truly napping by this tactic- i wacthed a corvette line up for it's dc run then steam right over head without dropping--- so i didn't maneuver thinking i was safe for the moment--i didn't spot the Clemson hurtling in at 24 knots ahead of me from distance -- and he did make a dangerous DC drop-- this dance kept up for a good hour or so---totally unpredictable -- even using the external camera i wasn't able to tell which DD i should be the most worried about--yet they were still working as a team --they had no choice- and even tho they were struggling a lot with the blind spot in their hydrophones- their tactics were not unintelliegnt - challenging and to my satisfaction allmost entirely HUMAN LOL!!!

Good, that unpredictable behavior looks so good.
Be ware save files.

Originally Posted by CB..

problems--?
one--no pinging--dunno why--

thoughts on this--

no pinging-- at all-- either the DD hydrophones CAN DETECT DEPTH-- pretty disasterous stuff ---or the games use of the pinging sound and "enemy is pinging us" warning is slightly unreliable--how else could they have known my depth--( and they did know it)

May be you have ubber pasive sensors, try editing beam angles, it can force them to use active one at final run.

May be them do not know your depth and estimate your position, then launch a random depth a set of depth charges ..... may be ?
Remember ping do not sound in external view, you must to stay inside the sub to hear it.

Originally Posted by CB..

so it's quite often a major investment of time to conduct a career patrol--- do we really want to spend all that time and not have a bit of fun with the DD's?

what ever edits we make we need to remember that the events were testing for - the peformance of the DD's et al are normally going to be experienced by the average player in the context of their campaign
careers--- i prefer to get detected id don't care if it's "arcade" ive just spent four hours finding this dang convoy and it had better be worth the effort gameplay wise- lol!!

behavior will be a final part of this investigation, every one will preffers a diferent behavior, i really love that behavior reached in SH2 with your DES5, where i was under attack during 30 hours, but other friend hates it......

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Redwine

you really have ubber sensors now !!! thats too much !

all good stuff thanks Red

here's my point tho on the little red sub indicator-- it did remain at full red all the time BUT i was able to shake the DD's so in this scenario it's not an indication of what's actually going on gameplay wise


i think on the passive sensors and the lack of pinging yup the passives are ubered BUT they have a massive hole in that the minimum distance is 1000 metres --if the information from the more distant DD's is enough for them to accurately guess my depth --then some minor introduction of noise should get them using the sonar - but it has to asked wether the hydrophones can in fact detect depth in the game--or are the pinging effects and warning "unreliable" (i did keep checking from the command room for pinging)

i was allso curious about the short period of orange on the sub meter at the start of the encounter---i was wondering if the generic AI_Hydrophones sensor entrys might actually be a less sensitive sensor than the named hydrophones and and is used in conjuction with the named hydrophones-- if so this would allow for the accurate creation of a "fuzzy" area out side the range of the ubered hydrophones---if so i could reduce- below stock- the maximum range of the named hydrophones and give the hydrophones a fuzzy less sensitive area out side that zone--

were at least all having some fun with this stuff at last!!

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by CB..

i was allso curious about the short period of orange on the sub meter at the start of the encounter---i was wondering if the generic AI_Hydrophones sensor entrys might actually be a less sensitive sensor than the named hydrophones and and is used in conjuction with the named hydrophones-- if so this would allow for the accurate creation of a "fuzzy" area out side the range of the ubered hydrophones---if so i could reduce- below stock- the maximum range of the named hydrophones and give the hydrophones a fuzzy less sensitive area out side that zone--

were at least all having some fun with this stuff at last!!

Interesting point........ :hmm:
We made that question before, why is the Hydrophones, if there is another speciphied sensors....... :hmm:

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Redwine

Interesting point........ :hmm:
We made that question before, why is the Hydrophones, if there is another speciphied sensors....... :hmm:

seems logical as the AI_hydrophone sensor has a longer maximum range than the named ones -- i have it set to 8000 metres (sorry Col forgot to say) and the green sub indictator went orange OUTSIDE the set max range for the named sensors BUT INSIDE the set max range for the AI_Hydrophone sensor :hmm:
so if it is used AT THE SAME TIME as the named sensors then this would explain somethings AND can be exploited to some very use full effects

[Col7777]

CB,

Thanks mate, I copied and pasted, remembering to back-up the original.

This sounds exciting now, can I ask also, IF you make any tweaks to rectify some of your concerns mentioned above, do please post them, great work pal.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Col7777

CB,

Thanks mate, I copied and pasted, remembering to back-up the original.

This sounds exciting now, can I ask also, IF you make any tweaks to rectify some of your concerns mentioned above, do please post them, great work pal.

Willdo Col!!

[timetraveller]

Redwine & Guys,

I updated the tweak file to include the bolds_count. Same file - you'll need to go get it again.

For the Mini Tweaker-

www.delraydepot.com/tt/Sensors_sim.zip

Hope this helps.

TT

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by timetraveller

Redwine & Guys,

I updated the tweak file to include the bolds_count. Same file - you'll need to go get it again.

For the Mini Tweaker-

www.delraydepot.com/tt/Sensors_sim.zip

Hope this helps.

TT

What can i say ! ...... thousand of thanks TT

[gouldjg]

Well guys

I am glad we are all getting good results all be it varying but good .

I have been kind of happy for the time being with My Hydrophone settings being a lot higher than defaults.

Every Hydrophone seems to be performing with much improvement upto now. No uber silent running detections and no ability to run past one third when within 2-3000 mtres.

I am hoping that in rough weather or higher waves, these ingame ranges of about 6000 start to deterioate in a logical order due to me leaving the sim.cfg alone.


I have left this for the moment untill I get my head on for the fine tuning part.

Anyway Going back onto actives

I have just had the most rewarding 505 mission ever ever.

Basically all I have done is average the sensitivity for all sensors in between 0.045 upto 0.06 in a ligical order from earliest = lowest and latest = highest.

As well as this I have set min ranges to between 250 mtres to 350 mtres.

And the bearing max of the later DDs to 80


Results Noticed =

If they have noticed you with their new hydrophones, and this is very critical bacuse as soon as you start your engine even at 1 or 2 knots, the indicator starts to change. Silent running gives me some breathing spoace.

Anyway

I was pinged because I needed to test if my min sonar tweaks worked. I let him come on my tail and kept flicking f12 and f2 so I could gage the range at which the pinging stopped.

The DD stops pinging me over the last 80mtrs, so even though min range is set at 350 something also nerfs that. This is why I think like I do with hydrophone ranges.

Cutting a potential long and boring story short, The DC's were close but not bang on unless I persisted in doing a total stupid staright run and then they was bang on.

The hedgehogs are close but it depends on angle of DD when he fires.

I managed to escape but only because there was one and I was constantly turning into him so he loses contact quicker and quicker.

It was fantastic compared to any other time I have tested u505 and trust me when I say I have tested the DD in that mission 100000000 times when doing Hollywood mods. Thats why I could never set equipment to break easy as the DD always had the advantage of not losing me on the last 150 mtrs.

This is by far not finnished because I am hoping Redwine might come up with a better set of active sensors.

p.s. I added aspect to the sim.cfg sonar, Just copied it form sensor. Do not know if it does anything but no harm occured.


Man I feel like this is a better game already. Lots more testing to do.

I am really keen on the idea of better decoys and a small increase in their ability to throw a DD off

P.S

I feel that I can maybe up the detection time on actives so it is touch and go when both I and the DD are turning into each other.

[Ducimus]

Well i feel im becoming a dog chasing it's tail.

Before i went to bed last night (man i'd better brew some more coffee this morning.. ughhh)

I ran a few more tests.


0.5 noise / 0.5 wave

1/3rd speed = red at 2300 I then switched to slow, and went back to green.

Slow = red at 1500, i thien switiched to silent and it went green, but was detected when the DD got next to me.


0.4 noise / 0.5 wave

1/3rd = red at 2700 meters, went to slow, sub went green.

slow = red at 1800 meters. switched to silent , sub went green.

silent = red at 700 meters,


0.5 noise / 0.4 wave

1/3rd speed = red at 2000 meters, going to slow meter goes green.

slow = red at 1500 meters, going to silent went green

silent = Err no results for this, either i was detected or didnt write it down.



So now comes the chassing the tail part:

0.5 noise / 0.3 wave
(which is NOT FAR from being 0.5 noise 0.25 wave, where i was ORIGNALLY.!! BAH!)

1/3rd speed = red at 1600 meters
slow = red at 1200 meters
Silent = i didnt write it down, my guess is he went red on me as he got within 500 -700 metes which seemed to be the norm throughout all my testing.





So the problem with all of this :

1.) my depth might be skewing things.

2.) if my depth is not skewing things, then were at a new problem. Enlarge the detection radius and silennt running doesnt seem to work very well. Shrink the radius so silent runing works, but now the detection radius is so small, were back to square one. To this end i think CB is onto something with imposing a rather large hole in the min distance of passive sonar. This im guesisng would allow us to raise the detection radius and not break silent running.


As an aisde:

0.55 noise factor / 0.0 wave factor

1/3rd = red at 2700
slow = red at 1600
silent = red at 500.

I do recall in previous tests that despite a red meter, i was undetected. i could experiment more with this if anyone wants.

EDIT:

Have we arrived to an agreement as to what ranges we should be detected at at which engine settings?

IE:

1/3rd , should be detected how far away? 2000? 3000? less?

slow should be detected how far away?1000? 1500? more? less?

Silent running .. well its supposed to be silent.

Despite zeroing in on a goal detection range, im worried that the wave factor will produce widley varied results in acutal play. SImply because i dont know if we want more or less wave factor in play. Crank it up and despite a low noise factor we'll still have deaf DD's under ideal sonar conditions. What is this going to do under storm conditions? Writing that it sounds like i have to rewind, and find a low noise factor, high wave factor setting.

[Redwine]

@ gouldjg :

Agree with you it is incredible how the game changes behavior easy now.....

Another good mission to test is Royal Flush from "Ubbermom" Avon Lady. There are two crew rating 4 and one crewrating 3 DDs.

There is a value which has a lot of influence in detection, it is wave factor, dont forget to play with this value, a little change make a big change in the game.

Decoys can be a help to shake a hard DD, we have how to tweak them easy now.

And the good thing on decoys, is they are a double edge knife, if you use them against an alone DD, when it passes over you, and you ener into its shadow sensor zone..... good, but if there are more DDs around there, the decoy can call them on you

Do you added aspect factor into Sim.cfg acives ?
May be it is considered by surface factor, but how do you do it ?

[Col7777]

I just played a test mission using CB's CFG, best bit of fun for ages.
Thing is I have a complaint CB, are trying to kill me, I had to pause to get a stiff drink, my nerves a shattered?

Seriously though it was as you described CB, my stealth meter went from orange to red then 2 DD's made a charge and they hounded the life out of me.
I tried this and that but in the end I came a cropper, I may not be a good as you so I may need a minor tweak to give me a chance, but I like it very much.