No Warning Or Wounding Shots

Feuer Frei! · 08-31-11, 07:59 AM

One of my readers recently told me about a case where a women fired a warning shot at a would be attacker who may have had a knife and is now being threatened with arrest by the police. Apparently, the would be attacker was scared away by the warning shot. Although the warning shot tactics it seems to have worked in this instance, warning shots in general are a very bad idea. Lets examine why.
If pointing a gun at a would be attacker isnt enough of a deterrent to prevent them from attacking you, theres a good chance that firing a warning shot wont deter them either. In fact, it may enrage them to the point that it causes them to attack you further.

If you attempt to fire a warning shot and your firearm malfunctions, you just gave away your position of advantage and created a huge opening for your attacker to attack you. This would put you even deeper into an already life threatening situation.
You are ultimately responsible for all of the rounds that exit your firearm. Projectiles dont just go into some type of void after you shoot them out of your gun. Eventually they HIT something. You dont want that something to be another person!

Firing a wounding shot is equally strategically and tactically unsound. The chances of you pulling off a wounding shot that will dissuade your attacker from continuing his attack is very slim. Its very hard even for well trained professional firearms experts to do that under the duress of an adrenaline dump.
What you should do instead, if you fear for your life, is to shoot your attacker center of mass (in the heart) to deanimate him by causing an extreme and immediate drop in blood pressure, which will cause him to go unconscious, thereby preventing him from continuing to attack you.
Dont mess around with warning or wounding shots, doing so could cost you your life.

SOURCE

Buddahaid · 08-31-11, 12:54 PM

Deanimate? Dictionary please for this product of a modern education.

Armistead · 08-31-11, 01:03 PM

I agree warning shots are a waste of time if your life is threatened. I've read many stories of people not wanting to shoot intruders and tried to get the drop on them and ended up dead.

Stupid is the idea by many your worse off pulling a gun on an intruder, that it poses more risk. Sure, it may provoke them to attack, but your other choice is to let them decide the value of your life.

I think women should keep a light 12 gauge for defense, hard to miss with that even if you are shaking. I admit the one time someone broke in my home or basement, I was waiting outside the door upstairs should they open it, I was rather shaky and excited myself, all I had available at that moment was a single shot 20 gauge with birdshot...

Osmium Steele · 08-31-11, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I admit the one time someone broke in my home or basement, I was waiting outside the door upstairs should they open it, I was rather shaky and excited myself, all I had available at that moment was a single shot 20 gauge with birdshot...

In the dark, dead quiet, a 20 gauge will sound like a cannon, and at that range, it would do the job just fine.

Stealhead · 08-31-11, 01:18 PM

The serial killer Richard Ramirez one of his victims a woman grabbed her husbands shot gun fired and missed Ramirez and he was in the bedroom with her only a few feet away so I dont put that much confidence in any weapon if the person is not very familiar with it enough so that they can still use under duress.

Not to be arguing with guys who like shotguns I own a few myself but I highly disagree about the "hard to miss" part I have seen many people miss by an amazing margin with shotguns even at non moving targets less than 20 yards away.If you plan on trusting your life with something you had better be extremely familiar with it.

I agree with center mass but keep firing until they are on the ground because one can get hit in the heart and still function well enough to kill you for 20 or 30 seconds and to make matters worse if a person has suffered a mortal wound they have nothing to lose now and will be rather determined to kill you.

Osmium Steele · 08-31-11, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

If you plan on trusting your life with something you had better be extremely familiar with it.

QFT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

I agree with center mass but keep firing until they are on the ground

Continue firing until they cease to be a threat.

Stealhead · 08-31-11, 01:55 PM

There have been many cases in Iraq and Afghanistan where the attacker suffered a mortal wound and was bleeding out but still kept right on fighting sometimes for several minutes.

My opinion is you firstly need to accept the fact that you will kill a person attacking you and then you must train yourself heavily on your weapon or weapons of choice I mean like Navy SEAL know how with that piece other wise do not bother.

Sailor Steve · 08-31-11, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I agree warning shots are a waste of time if your life is threatened.

I completely agree, but I'm reminded by a funny (but rare) story. When I was first married my father-in-law related a story involving his first daughter (my wife was the third and youngest). The oldest girl was in her early teens and apparently a neighborhood boy of roughly the same age was peeping in her window at night. She realized what was going on and informed her father. Dad surprised the boy in the yard at night with his gun and called on the kid to freeze. The kid in a panic ran the wrong way, straight toward dad, who lowered his gun and fired a shot down into the ground. The kid fainted dead away, and dad for a moment thought he had killed the boy!

Luckily for everyone the lad was unharmed and everything was sorted out. Needless to say everybody learned a lesson that night.

Bilge_Rat · 08-31-11, 02:36 PM

the one-shot, one-kill theory is movie fiction.

In practice, a bullet will stop someone cold only if you hit a vital organ like the brain or heart.

Shooting someone somewhere else will only cause loss of blood and a human being has to lose 20% of its blood before it loses consciousness and is no longer a threat. Obviously shooting someone multiple times will accelerate the progress. That is the reason why you are taught to keep firing until the target is down.

As noted above, there have been cases in Iraq and Afghanistan of individuals suffering multiple bullet wounds without any visible effect. It has been theorized that the ammo used by US forces (5.56x45mm, basically a .22) was going straight through causing minimal damage, meaning the person could continue fighting until loss of blood caused him to lose consciousness, which could take many minutes.

Platapus · 08-31-11, 04:37 PM

One of the problems with warning shots is where does the bullet end up?

Armistead · 08-31-11, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osmium Steele

In the dark, dead quiet, a 20 gauge will sound like a cannon, and at that range, it would do the job just fine.

Wasn't the 20 guage I was worried about, it was the one load of birdshot, not to mention all my other guns were in the basement at the time.

However, the Sheriff got him or them, two teenagers.

Worse, when I was about 17 I had a 44 revolver I bought from someone. My older brother was supposed to be working out of town. We didn't have AC, so I slept with my window open with a fan in it. I woke up to someone removing the fan, as they stuck their head in I put the pistol to their head and said some words like "blow your head off", course my brother shouted right away.

Heck, doubt I would've shot, who knows at that age, but I sure scared him.

RickC Sniper · 08-31-11, 05:29 PM

The woman fired a warning shot and it had her desired result----the intruder fled. What is wrong with that?

I'm in favor of putting a shot into the header above a door. The bullet will not travel any farther and it shows an intruder you know how to handle the gun, you are willing to use it, and will use it if said intruder does not leave or does not surrender to you.

Of course, if the intruder is brandishing a weapon forget it and defend yourself.

Feuer Frei! · 08-31-11, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Deanimate? Dictionary please for this product of a modern education.

Quote:

The word and concept of deanimation is not my own, I learned it twenty three years ago from my first firearms instructor, the legendary John Farnam, while going through the bodyguard training course at Executive Security International (ESI).

I, as a civilian have no interest in killing anyone, not even someone who is trying to actively kill me. Dont miss understand me, I dont want to be permantantly disabled or die in a fight and I certainly dont want to have anyone that I am protecting be injured or killed in a fight. What I do want to do instead is to deanimate my attacker(s), that is to say I want to STOP my attacker from attacking me. Whether he or she is killed in the process, or dies later is of no concern to me, Im only concerned with my own survival and the survival of the people Im protecting.

SOURCE

Rockstar · 08-31-11, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Deanimate? Dictionary please for this product of a modern education.

I like that, to Deanimate someone. <lol>

I suppose it's the right word to use though. As our reason for shooting someone is never to kill them. But rather to prevent them from committing certain crimes or causing serious bodily injury or death to someone else or myself.

For pete's sakes never aim at a particular point like a head or heart. But simply take aim at center mass because it is the largest therefore supposedly easiest target to hit on the human body. If the heart or other organs happens to get hit, oh well. But I'd never tell someone my intention was to kill them or my aim was for something other than center mass.

As far as warnings are concerned, about the only one I can think of which MAY help the good guy are verbal commands. But they aren't a necessity, it all depends on the situation.

Stealhead · 08-31-11, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickC Sniper

The woman fired a warning shot and it had her desired result----the intruder fled. What is wrong with that?

I'm in favor of putting a shot into the header above a door. The bullet will not travel any farther and it shows an intruder you know how to handle the gun, you are willing to use it, and will use it if said intruder does not leave or does not surrender to you.

Of course, if the intruder is brandishing a weapon forget it and defend yourself.

The problem is that you can not assume that the person is going to change their mind if they hear a gun fire it is not a guarantee that they will flee and if they are not fleeing and they are coming at you then you just put your line of sight away from the threat to fire a warning shot and now that person is closing in on you and may already be so close that a fire arm is now a liability(hand to hand in other words).

One of my dads friends woke one night to guy standing just inside his front door and he had a gun so the home owner fired his pistol at the guy and the guy ran but still had the gun in his hand so he kept getting fired at as he ran finally the hollered that he was sorry and dropped the gun.Later the guy got arrested trying to get into another home so even getting shot at did not deter him for very long.

I am going to assume that a person that has entered an occupied dwelling and is not displaying dire need for help which is a possibility they have probably decided that they will resort to violence to avoid going to jail or getting killed or injured themselves assuming they intend to rob multiply that by 100 if they intend to kill or rape.

The problem with using a fire arm is that if you hit someone there is a chance that they will die from the wound or even from shock.Realistically there is no guaranteed non fatal bullet wound.So if you have a problem with perhaps killing someone you need come up with another method of defense.

Also firing into a header above a door might also make the intruder think that you are not able to handle the weapon and that you just either misfired the weapon or missed.

I say yell out that you will use deadly force on the intruder if they do not leave immediately they can find out how accurate you are if they stay they can hear the waring that a shot is coming about the same time the bullet strikes them.This way if the person perhaps is meaning no harm but is dire need of help they would obviously say so though such a person would probably ahve tried pretty hard to awaken anyone in the house while they where still outside.

08-31-11, 07:59 AM	#1
Feuer Frei! Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Valhalla Posts: 5,295 Downloads: 141 Uploads: 17	No Warning Or Wounding Shots One of my readers recently told me about a case where a women fired a warning shot at a would be attacker who may have had a knife and is now being threatened with arrest by the police. Apparently, the would be attacker was scared away by the warning shot. Although the warning shot tactics it seems to have worked in this instance, warning shots in general are a very bad idea. Lets examine why. If pointing a gun at a would be attacker isnt enough of a deterrent to prevent them from attacking you, theres a good chance that firing a warning shot wont deter them either. In fact, it may enrage them to the point that it causes them to attack you further. If you attempt to fire a warning shot and your firearm malfunctions, you just gave away your position of advantage and created a huge opening for your attacker to attack you. This would put you even deeper into an already life threatening situation. You are ultimately responsible for all of the rounds that exit your firearm. Projectiles dont just go into some type of void after you shoot them out of your gun. Eventually they HIT something. You dont want that something to be another person! Firing a wounding shot is equally strategically and tactically unsound. The chances of you pulling off a wounding shot that will dissuade your attacker from continuing his attack is very slim. Its very hard even for well trained professional firearms experts to do that under the duress of an adrenaline dump. What you should do instead, if you fear for your life, is to shoot your attacker center of mass (in the heart) to deanimate him by causing an extreme and immediate drop in blood pressure, which will cause him to go unconscious, thereby preventing him from continuing to attack you. Dont mess around with warning or wounding shots, doing so could cost you your life. SOURCE __________________ "History is the lies that the victors agree on"- Napoleon LINK TO MY SH 3 MODS

08-31-11, 12:54 PM	#2
Buddahaid Shark above Space Chicken Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 9,324 Downloads: 162 Uploads: 0	Deanimate? Dictionary please for this product of a modern education. __________________ "However vast the darkness, we must provide our own light." Stanley Kubrick "Tomorrow belongs to those who can hear it coming." David Bowie

08-31-11, 02:36 PM	#9
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,856 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	the one-shot, one-kill theory is movie fiction. In practice, a bullet will stop someone cold only if you hit a vital organ like the brain or heart. Shooting someone somewhere else will only cause loss of blood and a human being has to lose 20% of its blood before it loses consciousness and is no longer a threat. Obviously shooting someone multiple times will accelerate the progress. That is the reason why you are taught to keep firing until the target is down. As noted above, there have been cases in Iraq and Afghanistan of individuals suffering multiple bullet wounds without any visible effect. It has been theorized that the ammo used by US forces (5.56x45mm, basically a .22) was going straight through causing minimal damage, meaning the person could continue fighting until loss of blood caused him to lose consciousness, which could take many minutes. __________________

08-31-11, 04:37 PM	#10
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,373 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	One of the problems with warning shots is where does the bullet end up? __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

08-31-11, 05:29 PM	#12
RickC Sniper Undetectable Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,221 Downloads: 132 Uploads: 0	The woman fired a warning shot and it had her desired result----the intruder fled. What is wrong with that? I'm in favor of putting a shot into the header above a door. The bullet will not travel any farther and it shows an intruder you know how to handle the gun, you are willing to use it, and will use it if said intruder does not leave or does not surrender to you. Of course, if the intruder is brandishing a weapon forget it and defend yourself. __________________ Support Subsim http://www.subsim.com/store.html

08-31-11, 01:03 PM	#3
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	I agree warning shots are a waste of time if your life is threatened. I've read many stories of people not wanting to shoot intruders and tried to get the drop on them and ended up dead. Stupid is the idea by many your worse off pulling a gun on an intruder, that it poses more risk. Sure, it may provoke them to attack, but your other choice is to let them decide the value of your life. I think women should keep a light 12 gauge for defense, hard to miss with that even if you are shaking. I admit the one time someone broke in my home or basement, I was waiting outside the door upstairs should they open it, I was rather shaky and excited myself, all I had available at that moment was a single shot 20 gauge with birdshot...

08-31-11, 01:18 PM	#5
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	The serial killer Richard Ramirez one of his victims a woman grabbed her husbands shot gun fired and missed Ramirez and he was in the bedroom with her only a few feet away so I dont put that much confidence in any weapon if the person is not very familiar with it enough so that they can still use under duress. Not to be arguing with guys who like shotguns I own a few myself but I highly disagree about the "hard to miss" part I have seen many people miss by an amazing margin with shotguns even at non moving targets less than 20 yards away.If you plan on trusting your life with something you had better be extremely familiar with it. I agree with center mass but keep firing until they are on the ground because one can get hit in the heart and still function well enough to kill you for 20 or 30 seconds and to make matters worse if a person has suffered a mortal wound they have nothing to lose now and will be rather determined to kill you.

08-31-11, 01:55 PM	#7
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	There have been many cases in Iraq and Afghanistan where the attacker suffered a mortal wound and was bleeding out but still kept right on fighting sometimes for several minutes. My opinion is you firstly need to accept the fact that you will kill a person attacking you and then you must train yourself heavily on your weapon or weapons of choice I mean like Navy SEAL know how with that piece other wise do not bother.