Arab unrest: Winners and losers

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by August

I have hope. Communications is key. Contact with the outside world is so much more prevalent now than it was in 1979.

Exactly, communication leads to the free exchange of ideas. The lack of that in the Islamic world for the past thousand years is what has been holding them back.

[August]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Exactly, communication leads to the free exchange of ideas. The lack of that in the Islamic world for the past thousand years is what has been holding them back.

I wonder if the Iranian revolution would have turned out like it did had the common people had the same degree of access to the outside world.

[tater]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Exactly, communication leads to the free exchange of ideas. The lack of that in the Islamic world for the past thousand years is what has been holding them back.

There is much self-censorship due to religion.

I'm not sanguine about things at all.

What are his motives for these stupid calls?

Its Sky off on one again.
Erdogan might be a crazy loon but that isn't what he said.
He said they must integrate, that is a bit different from skybirds world where that translates as "not integrate".
He did however say they shouldn't assimilate which isn't the same as integrate.

But anyway time for a Godwin.....

See how easy military control of demographic situations can fail.

There was this austrian bloke who failed in his military control of a demographic situation, apparently he had this thing about people of a certain religion taking over Europe and the world.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Exactly, communication leads to the free exchange of ideas. The lack of that in the Islamic world for the past thousand years is what has been holding them back.

communication, it is certainly important, but of course that they concerned countries really want change, and that not everything is good on paper

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

What are his motives for these stupid calls?
I don't know much about him but what levels of infuence, if you will, does he have on German Turks?
Whichever way you look at it, he is wrong.

Hard to say how huge his influence is. Despite Erdogans claims or (wishful) thinking from some people, Turks don't necessarily equal islamistic and/or nationalistic. So he is in fact seen controversial in the turkish community.
His utterings that being against islam means being against Turks are not believed by everyone.

There were about 10000 people who watched him, they came from other cities and neighbouring countries. Protests came from german conservative groups, kurds, lefts wanted to protest too - each group on their own.

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Is that what he said? Or is that what you think?

here's an interview with him in german, given before his speech: http://www.rp-online.de/politik/deut...id_969694.html

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Erdogan might be a crazy loon but that isn't what he said.
He said they must integrate, that is a bit different from skybirds world where that translates as "not integrate".
He did however say they shouldn't assimilate which isn't the same as integrate.

^ true that.
To be fair, in the whole debate about integration, no sane person ever spoke about assimilation or giving up one's language/culture, I'm sure Erdogan knows this too.

One point made him also sound like a lunatic: to demand that the Turks here should learn turkish first, then the country's language. Very helpful! Maybe the Erdogan clown should also pay the translators they need when they are in contact with the authorities...
It must be said that many here can't speak neither good turkish nor good german.

Most (immigrant/mixed) couples I know of, they teach their children both languages. If you learn it at an early age, you can master 2 or more languages without an accent. Given however, that's a subjective pov I have, as I am no friends with muppets who want their kids to fail

[Skybird]

Erdoghan is a master of split tongue, and he absues the terms of integration versus assimilation. He left no doubt that Turks should put their "being-Turkish" before Germany, and when he criticises assimilation, he nevertheless means integration indeed. I stick to my statement that he is fully against integration of Turks in Germany. And I also know from own expwerience that many Turks in Germany take the status of not needing to integrate as their natural right, and a normal state of things.

Third generation Turks are mor orthodfox and conservative, then first generation Turks have been. Significant ammounts of the younger ones, different data from past 5 years showed numbers between one third and one half, are against becomign German, are more or less influenced my extreme Turkish nationalism of even violent kind (I just mention the Grey Wolves and the Mili Görrus), and the belief that Germany needs to be turned into a Sharia state or/and a Turkish junior partner obeying Ankara, is anything but rare.

I sum up what Erdoghan means correctly. In past threads over the past 5 years I have given word-by-word quotes by him, both regarding the takeover of Europe by Islam as well as the future of Germany as he envisions it. On basis of these, his speech he now gave again is just showing how consistent and nevertheless double-tongued he is.

If somebody says "assimilation" and describes it by the termsa that means integration, then he may say "assimilation", but still means "integration". And if somebody says a foreigner ion a foreign country should integrate, but should not allow to have his national origin being seconded in that country to that country's own identity, then he may say he welcomes integration, but indeed he just said what he realy means: to resist integration.

Last but not least, Germany is Turkey's entrance gate into the EU, he thinks.

Erdoghan is a master of split-tongues speech. You need to listen very, very carefully. That he forms alliances with Iran, Syria, Hamas and Hezbollah, should tell you something about whose spirit's child he is.

P.S. Even speakers of Turkish organisations in Germany distance themselves from him, and criticise him. And that the conservatives and liberals and political centrists attack him anyway, must not be mentioned.

The left and the socialists, and former chancellor Schroeder however defend Turkey and demand it's quick entrance into the EU. What a braindead breed.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Erdoghan is a master of split tongue, and he absues the terms of integration versus assimilation. He left no doubt that Turks should put their "being-Turkish" before Germany, and when he criticises assimilation, he nevertheless means integration indeed. I stick to my statement that he is fully against integration of Turks in Germany. And I also know from own expwerience that many Turks in Germany take the status of not needing to integrate as their natural right, and a normal state of things.

Third generation Turks are mor orthodfox and conservative, then first generation Turks have been. Significant ammounts of the younger ones, different data from past 5 years showed numbers between one third and one half, are against becomign German, are more or less influenced my extreme Turkish nationalism of even violent kind (I just mention the Grey Wolves and the Mili Görrus), and the belief that Germany needs to be turned into a Sharia state or/and a Turkish junior partner obeying Ankara, is anything but rare.

I sum up what Erdoghan means correctly. In past threads over the past 5 years I have given word-by-word quotes by him, both regarding the takeover of Europe by Islam as well as the future of Germany as he envisions it. On basis of these, his speech he now gave again is just showing how consistent and nevertheless double-tongued he is.

If somebody says "assimilation" and describes it by the termsa that means integration, then he may say "assimilation", but still means "integration". And if somebody says a foreigner ion a foreign country should integrate, but should not allow to have his national origin being seconded in that country to that country's own identity, then he may say he welcomes integration, but indeed he just said what he realy means: to resist integration.

Last but not least, Germany is Turkey's entrance gate into the EU, he thinks.

Erdoghan is a master of split-tongues speech. You need to listen very, very carefully. That he forms alliances with Iran, Syria, Hamas and Hezbollah, should tell you something about whose spirit's child he is.

P.S. Even speakers of Turkish organisations in Germany distance themselves from him, and criticise him.

"Germany is Turkey's entrance gate into the EU, he thinks." But there, he has been so wrong

Erdoghan is a master of split tongue, and he absues the terms of integration versus assimilation.

Says he of the very split tongue who not only changed words entirely he actually reversed what was said

I stick to my statement

Yeah, like sticking to your statement about Shia Saudi arabia taking oveer the world

no sane person ever spoke about assimilation or giving up one's language/culture

Well skybird said........

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

A secular society can't be extremist?

I did put 'and' between 'liberal' and 'secular', but anything can be taken to extremes

[TheSatyr]

What worries me the most is that it is the secular Arab nations that seem to be in the most trouble.

I can't but help feeling that Iran is behind all of this one way or another.

[Castout]

I think it's the Swedish who are behind all this. They want more Volvo sold so thus they need a new market soon. You'll see. I tell you it's the Swedish!!!

And it makes perfect sense since it doesn't!!

You have no idea how some people are benefiting from the perception of senseless and motiveless acts. I know that for certain.

[Jimbuna]

When all this turmoil is over I guess we'll have a clearer picture of who is the winner and who is the loser.