Range without detection

stephenf555 · 02-07-11, 10:32 AM

Hi all,
I've read a lot of posts about various techniques of target tracking/intercepting/sinking. I have a question involving range calculation without being detected.

One video I saw for a sonar only attack showed calculation of range by pinging the target. I assume this is ok for a merchant but also assume a destroyer would pick up on the sound and hunt you down. However if I pop up the periscope and have a look around I'm normally spotted a long way off. Normally this means I end of firing while under pressure from destroyers, rather than getting my shots in before anyone knows I'm there.

So is there any way to get range information without being detected (without map updates) or is it just a matter of popping up the periscope for a very short time, getting the info and bringing it down again?

Thanks.
Stephenf555

WernherVonTrapp · 02-07-11, 10:41 AM

If you're getting spotted by popping your periscope up for a mere few seconds, I'm guessing you've already been detected before doing so. Trying using your passive sonar to get a lock and then trace a line (using the ruler) by tracing over the sonar line from your sub to the target. That should give you a rough estimate on target range.

TorpX · 02-07-11, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephenf555

Hi all,
I've read a lot of posts about various techniques of target tracking/intercepting/sinking. I have a question involving range calculation without being detected.

One video I saw for a sonar only attack showed calculation of range by pinging the target. I assume this is ok for a merchant but also assume a destroyer would pick up on the sound and hunt you down. However if I pop up the periscope and have a look around I'm normally spotted a long way off. Normally this means I end of firing while under pressure from destroyers, rather than getting my shots in before anyone knows I'm there.

So is there any way to get range information without being detected (without map updates) or is it just a matter of popping up the periscope for a very short time, getting the info and bringing it down again?

Thanks.
Stephenf555

I wouldn't get too caught up with sonar only attacks. While theoretically possible, they are in practice very difficult. If you don't have radar you are mostly dependant on visual observation. At long range, say >4,000yd, I think you could leave your scope up. At 2,000 to 4,000yd, I would lower it between observations. At less than 2,000yd I would be keep exposures short. Of course, at night, your scope should be nearly invisible.

The other danger, is that you can be heard. It is better to get well ahead of enemy ships, then slow down and let them come to you, than to have to race at high speed to catch up and risk being heard.

stephenf555 · 02-07-11, 11:37 AM

Thanks lads.
Maybe I should just make sure I get all the info while they're still a long way off.
I'm just getting to grips with manual targeting at the moment so it's quite possible I'm just leaving it up for too long getting all my info.

Platapus · 02-07-11, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephenf555

Thanks lads.
Maybe I should just make sure I get all the info while they're still a long way off.
I'm just getting to grips with manual targeting at the moment so it's quite possible I'm just leaving it up for too long getting all my info.

If you want to practice attack approaches, patrol just off of Pearl Harbor.

Lots of boats out there and they won't attack. This gives you lots of chances to track and shadow. I just would simulate all attacks instead of launching torpedoes. Sinking the fleet outside of Pearl will have adverse effects on your career.

But seriously, use friendly ships to practice your attacks. If this technique was good enough for real sub captains, it should be good enough for us.

irish1958 · 02-08-11, 10:41 AM

See: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...bearing+method

Dogfish40 · 02-08-11, 01:16 PM

Platapus gave you a huge idea here. While on course to my destinations I always track friendly ships. Historically, this was done; the friendly ships were warned that US subs between California and Hawaii would be conducting runs on them and not to freak out. I learned a great deal about the Hydrophones from doing this. Now, I quite often can lay down a course for a contact (with a decent range estimate) from practicing with friendlies.
Another thing about IJN DD's, Always go to Battle stations and Silent Running.
I've walloped all of my escorted ships with silent running. Without it, they'll hear you from miles away. I'm sure you know this already, I've messed up a few times and forgot to even go to battle stations and KA-BOOM, I'm running like Elmer Fudd.
Good Hunting
D40

TorpX · 02-09-11, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

If you want to practice attack approaches, patrol just off of Pearl Harbor.

Lots of boats out there and they won't attack. This gives you lots of chances to track and shadow. I just would simulate all attacks instead of launching torpedoes. Sinking the fleet outside of Pearl will have adverse effects on your career.

But seriously, use friendly ships to practice your attacks. If this technique was good enough for real sub captains, it should be good enough for us.

Not a bad idea.

I was thinking, there is nothing to stop you from attacking with "practice" torpedos when you do this. As long as you remember to set the depth low enough, you won't get into trouble. The Navy won't mind paying for the extra torpedos.

Bilge_Rat · 02-09-11, 03:56 PM

re: sonar only attack.

In RL, this was the standard pre-war doctrine and was used during the early few months. However, it was quickly abandoned since it turned out to be impossible in practice to hit any ships.

In game, it is possible and there was a thread a while back by a player who used it successfully. Although pinging a target could be deadly in RL, in game I do not believe the enemy AI is programmed to react to it. I never used it myself since it is much harder to do than a periscope attack.

If an enemy DD is spotting your periscope, then you are too close. In daytime, within 1,000 yds of a target, that is always a risk. I have had many attacks spoiled because I waited too long before firing (I like to wait until they are at point blank range before firing).

tip: if you hear the DDs alarm bell go off as it turns towards you, then you are definitely too close...

irish1958 · 02-09-11, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

re: sonar only attack.

In RL, this was the standard pre-war doctrine and was used during the early few months. However, it was quickly abandoned since it turned out to be impossible in practice to hit any ships.

In game, it is possible and there was a thread a while back by a player who used it successfully. Although pinging a target could be deadly in RL, in game I do not believe the enemy AI is programmed to react to it. I never used it myself since it is much harder to do than a periscope attack.

If an enemy DD is spotting your periscope, then you are too close. In daytime, within 1,000 yds of a target, that is always a risk. I have had many attacks spoiled because I waited too long before firing (I like to wait until they are at point blank range before firing).

tip: if you hear the DDs alarm bell go off as it turns towards you, then you are definitely too close...

Maybe they hit the ships but the stupid torpedoes were mostly duds. Since the Navy said the torpedoes were flawless, they might have assumed the Lt CMDRs didn't know what they were doing.

TorpX · 02-09-11, 08:17 PM

There is also another aspect to consider. Besides not knowing if/how many of the torps were hitting, there would be no verification of the sinking. Real life captains were expected to provide visual confirmation of their kills. That in itself discouraged sonar only tactics.

commandosolo2009 · 02-09-11, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

If you want to practice attack approaches, patrol just off of Pearl Harbor.

Lots of boats out there and they won't attack. This gives you lots of chances to track and shadow. I just would simulate all attacks instead of launching torpedoes. Sinking the fleet outside of Pearl will have adverse effects on your career.

But seriously, use friendly ships to practice your attacks. If this technique was good enough for real sub captains, it should be good enough for us.

I know that O'kane used this but with Mexican fisher boats... Imagine the Mexicans discovered him... Would've been a disaster...

02-07-11, 10:32 AM	#1
stephenf555 Watch Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Cork, Ireland Posts: 28 Downloads: 49 Uploads: 0	Range without detection Hi all, I've read a lot of posts about various techniques of target tracking/intercepting/sinking. I have a question involving range calculation without being detected. One video I saw for a sonar only attack showed calculation of range by pinging the target. I assume this is ok for a merchant but also assume a destroyer would pick up on the sound and hunt you down. However if I pop up the periscope and have a look around I'm normally spotted a long way off. Normally this means I end of firing while under pressure from destroyers, rather than getting my shots in before anyone knows I'm there. So is there any way to get range information without being detected (without map updates) or is it just a matter of popping up the periscope for a very short time, getting the info and bringing it down again? Thanks. Stephenf555

02-07-11, 10:41 AM	#2
WernherVonTrapp Admiral Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Now, alot farther from NYC. Posts: 2,228 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 0	If you're getting spotted by popping your periscope up for a mere few seconds, I'm guessing you've already been detected before doing so. Trying using your passive sonar to get a lock and then trace a line (using the ruler) by tracing over the sonar line from your sub to the target. That should give you a rough estimate on target range. __________________ "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." -Miyamoto Musashi ------------------------------------------------------- "What is truth?" -Pontius Pilate

02-08-11, 10:41 AM	#6
irish1958 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Carmel, Indiana Posts: 3,250 Downloads: 320 Uploads: 11	See: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...bearing+method __________________ Irish1958

02-08-11, 01:16 PM	#7
Dogfish40 Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: LA Area, Central coast, California Posts: 1,023 Downloads: 827 Uploads: 0	Platapus gave you a huge idea here. While on course to my destinations I always track friendly ships. Historically, this was done; the friendly ships were warned that US subs between California and Hawaii would be conducting runs on them and not to freak out. I learned a great deal about the Hydrophones from doing this. Now, I quite often can lay down a course for a contact (with a decent range estimate) from practicing with friendlies. Another thing about IJN DD's, Always go to Battle stations and Silent Running. I've walloped all of my escorted ships with silent running. Without it, they'll hear you from miles away. I'm sure you know this already, I've messed up a few times and forgot to even go to battle stations and KA-BOOM, I'm running like Elmer Fudd. Good Hunting D40 __________________ *Dogfish40*

02-09-11, 03:56 PM	#9
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,855 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	re: sonar only attack. In RL, this was the standard pre-war doctrine and was used during the early few months. However, it was quickly abandoned since it turned out to be impossible in practice to hit any ships. In game, it is possible and there was a thread a while back by a player who used it successfully. Although pinging a target could be deadly in RL, in game I do not believe the enemy AI is programmed to react to it. I never used it myself since it is much harder to do than a periscope attack. If an enemy DD is spotting your periscope, then you are too close. In daytime, within 1,000 yds of a target, that is always a risk. I have had many attacks spoiled because I waited too long before firing (I like to wait until they are at point blank range before firing). tip: if you hear the DDs alarm bell go off as it turns towards you, then you are definitely too close... __________________

02-07-11, 11:37 AM	#4
stephenf555 Watch Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Cork, Ireland Posts: 28 Downloads: 49 Uploads: 0	Thanks lads. Maybe I should just make sure I get all the info while they're still a long way off. I'm just getting to grips with manual targeting at the moment so it's quite possible I'm just leaving it up for too long getting all my info.

02-09-11, 08:17 PM	#11
TorpX Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,975 Downloads: 153 Uploads: 11	There is also another aspect to consider. Besides not knowing if/how many of the torps were hitting, there would be no verification of the sinking. Real life captains were expected to provide visual confirmation of their kills. That in itself discouraged sonar only tactics.