Why the "Beta patch" for TMO 2.0 is a Beta

Ducimus · 02-01-11, 04:54 AM

Ordinarily id post this in the TMO thread, rather then attention whore myself with a new one, but i need an idea of how people feel, hence a poll.

Anywho, why is the "beta patch" a beta?

Because i couldn't make up my mind on a design change that is fundamental to the TMO mod. That design change is the removal of underwater detection for aircraft, for much of the war.

Current situation:
Aircraft can detect the player while submerged if the weather and player depth permits.

Situation as changed in the Beta patch:
Aircraft can no longer detect the player while submerged until around october 1944. At that point, some aircraft change over to a visual sensor that behaves as before. Allowing for submerged detection if weather and player depth permits.

Why would i consider changing the status quo on aircraft visuals?

1.) It's been my thought that shallow water operations are more dangerous then they should be. As it is, if you get caught in shallow water in the right conditions by aircraft, your pretty much hosed. And there's a lot of shallow areas to traverse.

2.) It's also been my thought that the water is too transparent. The water transparency i adjusted so that you could barely see the silloute of your sub at 160 feet. While this has no bearing on the AI's actual sensors in any way shape or form, this adjustment was made for the sole reason of the inevitable post of "OMGWTF! There's no way a plane could see me at that depth". Well, i made it so you could see yourself, It's very much a placebo. (Yes, i think this far in advance on some things) Is the water transparency realistic? In some areas, perhaps, but i think it's just a little overdone. The transparency level in the beta patch, is *about* where i think it should be at. Could probably use a little adjustment. Yes I realize this is all graphical and eyecandy in nature, but there you have it. I have considered it at length.

3.) The way visual detection works, it could probably better be served as MAD. (think of this in terms as "the most correct" answer on a mulitple choice test) Of course this means sacrificing normal submerged visual detection, and thereby eliminates the main reason to fear aircraft for most of the war.

Why not just make an optional mod?
Now, i could always cheese out and make one visual schema or the other an optional mod, but truthfully, i dislike making optional mods because

a.) They create more work for me to do. (because you have to make them, and then maintain them. The Aft deck gun mod is very high on my excrement list, but its not going away)

b.) There's already lot of mod overlaying mod with conflicting files. It's always been my personal opinion that it's bad practice to overlay mods on top of mods with file conflicts. However, modern versions of JSGME make this easier and less prone to some mod screwups with the end user, and it's become the accepted norm in the community out of neccessity. What's more, with my own work that i do internally, i overlay files all the time because its easier to make and revert changes. My thought has been that, I know what i'm doing, but the trouble is, not all end users do. So with my own published work, i think i should strive to try to keep the overlaying of mods down to a bare minimum.

Combine points A and B, and you can pretty much guess that I've never been a big fan of making TMO optional mods.

At any rate, vote what you think if you care. I'll let this subject float around for awhile before i act on it. Eventually, i have to finalize the next update to TMO. Unfortunately, i strongly suspect it will be without Captain America's interior work (officers country if you remember). Haven't seen hide nor hair of the man. Can't say i blame him if hes moved on to newer hobbies, modding does get old after awhile.

Jan Kyster · 02-01-11, 05:35 AM

really don't know what to vote...

Been playing the patch since release and couldn't be happier, but I don't understand this part:

"Situation as changed in the Beta patch:
Aircraft can no longer detect the player while submerged until around october 1944..."?

Are you saying that even at PD, planes will not detect us, i.e. we're "panicing" and crashdiving to 80m for nothing?

One pre-patch thing I do remember was a situation, where we were at 140m with planes all over the place precision bombing us in the middle of the night.
That was a game-breaker for me...

There must be a middle way between the (if true) no underwater detection and the X-Ray situation?

keltos01 · 02-01-11, 08:13 AM

I read "take her deep" I think it was recently, on their last patrol they were submerged and heard a buzzing noise on the hull coming and going, then at one point WHAM ! depth charges hitting them !

The USN recons it must've been one of the first MAD equipped IJN planes flying over that they heard !

read the IJN mission to japan 1946 MAD report :

delivered in April 1944

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/prima...ort%20E-14.pdf

keltos

ReallyDedPoet · 02-01-11, 08:43 AM

I have always liked this with Trigger

, I voted to keep it as is, but would not be to bent out of shape

if it was more historically accurate.

Sailor Steve · 02-01-11, 11:14 AM

I'm with you in feeling both ways. I've seen the bottom in water that was around 80-100 feet deep, but only a couple of times. In Lurkers OM he also allowed planes to see fairly deep, and it made North Sea operations unhistorically difficult.

That said, the North Sea and the Pacific are far different. Sorry I can't help more, but I really can see the arguments for both sides.

I did, however, vote for the change, as my own personal playing abilities aren't all that great, and I need all the help I can get.

Jeffg · 02-01-11, 11:20 AM

I think your ideas are very valid and go with them. I know that a lot of subs were caught in shallow water and they were able to get away so in game should have the same chance.I would love to have seen Capt America's mod go thru and I have emailed him without replies also.

JeffG

Armistead · 02-01-11, 01:46 PM

I think the issue for many of us is using RSRD. Not sure how it effects aircraft visuals or bomb load, but it obviously does. Simply, the killer planes of TMO alone are nil. After playing RSRD for a few years, I went to TMO alone..and I was back to hating planes, but I miss those, RSRD changes that. Also, never notice any deep dropping bombs until later in the war with RSRD.

I'm to the point of boredom in many aspects and want the game as hard as possible, yet playable. Almost always I can blow entire convoys up at will.

I would rather play the game where I have to really think, wait and attack under the best conditions. This may be daunting for newer players, but my guess is the vets here are sinking 2-3 million tons per career.

I know you hate stacking mods and I'm a mod stacker, but a megamod is ..how many smaller mods in one, hundreds. I sure wish you would make optional mods to go over RSRD to at least use TMO harder settings, if not harder.

I enjoy being in my sub with no cams and charges falling like rain if I goof and get caught in my attack.

Dignan · 02-01-11, 02:16 PM

I voted to incorporate the beta patch changes. I think it provides the best compromise. You can still easily get caught off guard on the surface and with the slower diving times of TMO it makes for some close calls when aircraft are spotted. Incorporate the beta!!!

02-01-11, 02:38 PM

I vote for a change and trust that Duci's change will be an improvement .

Hylander_1314 · 02-01-11, 06:56 PM

I like the idea of the change! TMO has been my mod of choice since I first got back into SH4 2 years ago. Every little tweak that has been added has been great.

I vote to have it added, as I hate assignments in the Java Sea and other places where deep water evasive tactics work.

Ducimus · 02-09-11, 04:22 PM

Well, thats' what id call a landslide vote.

God help me, i started fixing something that's been bugging the piss out of me for a very long time this morning. We'll see how long i last before i burn out again. Right now, all i intend to do is fix minor crap, and finalize the patch.

But i have another dumb question:

That Uboat Radio room i hodgepodged and sliced in. If i were to ever do another full revision update, would you:

A.) miss it if i took it out,

or

b.)would you like to see it expanded on?

I got a hair brain idea on how i might be able to make it into a full on separate compartment. Not sure if it will work, but it might.

Frankly i don't care, if it's in or not. Id just as soon as delete it because it would make things clash less, and use less resources.

Jan Kyster · 02-09-11, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

That Uboat Radio room... would you.. miss it if I took it out...

See, I really need to get out some more. From the command room, I mean. Haven't ever noticed that room...

Now I'm not in a position to give you any advice, but you really should do what you find is working best for you.

I'm certain that 1) you'll never hear any complaints and 2) we're in good hands!

Things flavoured to your taste has always worked very fine. At least for me!

And in case of imminent burn-out danger, here's a cure:

Standing by for shipping out...

razark · 02-09-11, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

That Uboat Radio room i hodgepodged and sliced in. If i were to ever do another full revision update, would you:

A.) miss it if i took it out,

or

b.)would you like to see it expanded on?

I got a hair brain idea on how i might be able to make it into a full on separate compartment. Not sure if it will work, but it might.

I never use it. Perhaps if it actually did something, it would be different, but I don't see any reason to go there, and the u-boat interior in a fleet boat just doesn't quite seem right. I was really hoping to see Captain America's interior someday.

virtualpender · 02-09-11, 05:48 PM

I agree - Captain America's fully realized officer's country would be amazing but I don't think there is much use for the kitbashed radio room as is, especially if removing it will free you up to work on other bits.

I know I speak for all of us when I say "Welcome back!" We'll take any bit of modding we can get from your overloaded brain for as long as we can get it!

Ducimus · 02-09-11, 05:54 PM

Well, i wont be doing any interior bits just yet. Just putting the idea out there.

More Focused on finalizing this patch ive left on permanent beta status for im guessing half a year now.

edit: As soon as im done fixing some of the enviromental water colors, i think ill attempt to play it for awhile. Thats usually when i find something else i need to fix.

View Poll Results: How should Aircraft visual detection be?
Leave it as it is. Submerged detection is part and parcel of TMO.	8	15.69%
Change it to be a MAD like sensor in late 1944 like the beta patch has already done.	43	84.31%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

02-01-11, 04:54 AM	#1
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Why the "Beta patch" for TMO 2.0 is a Beta Ordinarily id post this in the TMO thread, rather then attention whore myself with a new one, but i need an idea of how people feel, hence a poll. Anywho, why is the "beta patch" a beta? Because i couldn't make up my mind on a design change that is fundamental to the TMO mod. That design change is the removal of underwater detection for aircraft, for much of the war. Current situation: Aircraft can detect the player while submerged if the weather and player depth permits. Situation as changed in the Beta patch: Aircraft can no longer detect the player while submerged until around october 1944. At that point, some aircraft change over to a visual sensor that behaves as before. Allowing for submerged detection if weather and player depth permits. Why would i consider changing the status quo on aircraft visuals? 1.) It's been my thought that shallow water operations are more dangerous then they should be. As it is, if you get caught in shallow water in the right conditions by aircraft, your pretty much hosed. And there's a lot of shallow areas to traverse. 2.) It's also been my thought that the water is too transparent. The water transparency i adjusted so that you could barely see the silloute of your sub at 160 feet. While this has no bearing on the AI's actual sensors in any way shape or form, this adjustment was made for the sole reason of the inevitable post of "OMGWTF! There's no way a plane could see me at that depth". Well, i made it so you could see yourself, It's very much a placebo. (Yes, i think this far in advance on some things) Is the water transparency realistic? In some areas, perhaps, but i think it's just a little overdone. The transparency level in the beta patch, is about where i think it should be at. Could probably use a little adjustment. Yes I realize this is all graphical and eyecandy in nature, but there you have it. I have considered it at length. 3.) The way visual detection works, it could probably better be served as MAD. (think of this in terms as "the most correct" answer on a mulitple choice test) Of course this means sacrificing normal submerged visual detection, and thereby eliminates the main reason to fear aircraft for most of the war. Why not just make an optional mod? Now, i could always cheese out and make one visual schema or the other an optional mod, but truthfully, i dislike making optional mods because a.) They create more work for me to do. (because you have to make them, and then maintain them. The Aft deck gun mod is very high on my excrement list, but its not going away) b.) There's already lot of mod overlaying mod with conflicting files. It's always been my personal opinion that it's bad practice to overlay mods on top of mods with file conflicts. However, modern versions of JSGME make this easier and less prone to some mod screwups with the end user, and it's become the accepted norm in the community out of neccessity. What's more, with my own work that i do internally, i overlay files all the time because its easier to make and revert changes. My thought has been that, I know what i'm doing, but the trouble is, not all end users do. So with my own published work, i think i should strive to try to keep the overlaying of mods down to a bare minimum. Combine points A and B, and you can pretty much guess that I've never been a big fan of making TMO optional mods. At any rate, vote what you think if you care. I'll let this subject float around for awhile before i act on it. Eventually, i have to finalize the next update to TMO. Unfortunately, i strongly suspect it will be without Captain America's interior work (officers country if you remember). Haven't seen hide nor hair of the man. Can't say i blame him if hes moved on to newer hobbies, modding does get old after awhile. Last edited by Ducimus; 02-01-11 at 05:09 AM.

02-01-11, 08:13 AM	#3
keltos01 Silent Hunter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Milan Italy Posts: 4,999 Downloads: 114 Uploads: 18	I read "take her deep" I think it was recently, on their last patrol they were submerged and heard a buzzing noise on the hull coming and going, then at one point WHAM ! depth charges hitting them ! The USN recons it must've been one of the first MAD equipped IJN planes flying over that they heard ! read the IJN mission to japan 1946 MAD report : delivered in April 1944 http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/prima...ort%20E-14.pdf keltos __________________ "Honorable Builder of Sinking Ships" Last edited by keltos01; 02-01-11 at 09:57 AM.

02-01-11, 08:43 AM	#4
ReallyDedPoet Canadian Wolf Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Canada. The one and only, East Coast Posts: 10,888 Downloads: 946 Uploads: 5	I have always liked this with Trigger , I voted to keep it as is, but would not be to bent out of shape if it was more historically accurate. __________________ Back in the Day

02-01-11, 11:14 AM	#5
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	I'm with you in feeling both ways. I've seen the bottom in water that was around 80-100 feet deep, but only a couple of times. In Lurkers OM he also allowed planes to see fairly deep, and it made North Sea operations unhistorically difficult. That said, the North Sea and the Pacific are far different. Sorry I can't help more, but I really can see the arguments for both sides. I did, however, vote for the change, as my own personal playing abilities aren't all that great, and I need all the help I can get. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

02-01-11, 05:35 AM	#2
Jan Kyster Ace of the Deep Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,151 Downloads: 152 Uploads: 0	really don't know what to vote... Been playing the patch since release and couldn't be happier, but I don't understand this part: "*Situation as changed in the Beta patch:* Aircraft can no longer detect the player while submerged until around october 1944..."? Are you saying that even at PD, planes will not detect us, i.e. we're "panicing" and crashdiving to 80m for nothing? One pre-patch thing I do remember was a situation, where we were at 140m with planes all over the place precision bombing us in the middle of the night. That was a game-breaker for me... There must be a middle way between the (if true) no underwater detection and the X-Ray situation?

02-01-11, 11:20 AM	#6
Jeffg Exec Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: ponte vedra beach,fl Posts: 249 Downloads: 1654 Uploads: 0	I think your ideas are very valid and go with them. I know that a lot of subs were caught in shallow water and they were able to get away so in game should have the same chance.I would love to have seen Capt America's mod go thru and I have emailed him without replies also. JeffG

02-01-11, 01:46 PM	#7
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	I think the issue for many of us is using RSRD. Not sure how it effects aircraft visuals or bomb load, but it obviously does. Simply, the killer planes of TMO alone are nil. After playing RSRD for a few years, I went to TMO alone..and I was back to hating planes, but I miss those, RSRD changes that. Also, never notice any deep dropping bombs until later in the war with RSRD. I'm to the point of boredom in many aspects and want the game as hard as possible, yet playable. Almost always I can blow entire convoys up at will. I would rather play the game where I have to really think, wait and attack under the best conditions. This may be daunting for newer players, but my guess is the vets here are sinking 2-3 million tons per career. I know you hate stacking mods and I'm a mod stacker, but a megamod is ..how many smaller mods in one, hundreds. I sure wish you would make optional mods to go over RSRD to at least use TMO harder settings, if not harder. I enjoy being in my sub with no cams and charges falling like rain if I goof and get caught in my attack.

02-01-11, 02:16 PM	#8
Dignan Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 698 Downloads: 262 Uploads: 0	I voted to incorporate the beta patch changes. I think it provides the best compromise. You can still easily get caught off guard on the surface and with the slower diving times of TMO it makes for some close calls when aircraft are spotted. Incorporate the beta!!!

02-01-11, 02:38 PM	#9
jldjs Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I vote for a change and trust that Duci's change will be an improvement .

02-01-11, 06:56 PM	#10
Hylander_1314 Sea Lord Join Date: May 2006 Location: 5 Miles Inland West Of Lake Huron Posts: 1,936 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	I like the idea of the change! TMO has been my mod of choice since I first got back into SH4 2 years ago. Every little tweak that has been added has been great. I vote to have it added, as I hate assignments in the Java Sea and other places where deep water evasive tactics work. __________________ A legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law. -John Marshall Chief Justice of the Supreme Court ---------------------

02-09-11, 04:22 PM	#11
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Well, thats' what id call a landslide vote. God help me, i started fixing something that's been bugging the piss out of me for a very long time this morning. We'll see how long i last before i burn out again. Right now, all i intend to do is fix minor crap, and finalize the patch. But i have another dumb question: That Uboat Radio room i hodgepodged and sliced in. If i were to ever do another full revision update, would you: A.) miss it if i took it out, or b.)would you like to see it expanded on? I got a hair brain idea on how i might be able to make it into a full on separate compartment. Not sure if it will work, but it might. Frankly i don't care, if it's in or not. Id just as soon as delete it because it would make things clash less, and use less resources.

02-09-11, 05:48 PM	#14
virtualpender Sonar Guy Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 381 Downloads: 281 Uploads: 0	I agree - Captain America's fully realized officer's country would be amazing but I don't think there is much use for the kitbashed radio room as is, especially if removing it will free you up to work on other bits. I know I speak for all of us when I say "Welcome back!" We'll take any bit of modding we can get from your overloaded brain for as long as we can get it!

02-09-11, 05:54 PM	#15
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Well, i wont be doing any interior bits just yet. Just putting the idea out there. More Focused on finalizing this patch ive left on permanent beta status for im guessing half a year now. edit: As soon as im done fixing some of the enviromental water colors, i think ill attempt to play it for awhile. Thats usually when i find something else i need to fix.