German police arrest 22 in neo-Nazi internet raid

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

Neo nazies are quite common in china, mongolia etc
i remember seeing high school kids in china doing the nazi salute and thinking that it was cool

and India:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8660064.stm

[the_tyrant]

Originally Posted by CCIP

and India:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8660064.stm

I think its because that in developing nations politically active teens think that their country is treated unfairly by more powerful nations. Therefore, they idolize Hitlar

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by tater

(and yep, I consider anyone in ww2 in a german uniform a nazi, regardless of their actual party membership status)

Especially those who were drafted, or who joined the military before 1933, right?

"damn straight, the time to surrender is BEFORE you kill so many of the guys who are obviously gonna win."

So I assume that if this were to happen to American soldiers, you'd have no problem with it? Serves em' right, I suppose?

Germans knew exactly what was going on in Germany. Fighting for Germany in WW2 was fighting for Hitler, and everything that meant. they knew this.

Exactly, because access to unbiased sources of information is easy and unfettered in totalitarian states, and the price of dissent is minimal.

So EVERYONE in Germany knew exactly what was going on all the time. ANYONE who wasn't willing to risk his family and friends being arrested after he opposed the regime bears full responsibility.

If the Germans knew everything their government was doing, then I guess the Soviets knew everything their government was doing too, right? So I guess any man to wear the Soviet uniform was culpable for the USSR's crimes, especially the ones who died by the millions to win the war?

If only everyone had your moral clarity. Life would be so simple.

[Gerald]

Difficult to find relevant words, which fit in the story, it becomes this way,

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

I think its because that in developing nations politically active teens think that their country is treated unfairly by more powerful nations. Therefore, they idolize Hitlar

In fairness, I think they're less Neo-Nazism as such and more just silly cargo cult Nazism that doesn't understand anything.

[the_tyrant]

Originally Posted by CCIP

In fairness, I think they're less Neo-Nazism as such and more just silly cargo cult Nazism that doesn't understand anything.

That is probably true
but you know, rising housing prices, rising crime, people in those places are always looking to expand their "living space"

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by CCIP

In fairness, I think they're less Neo-Nazism as such and more just silly cargo cult Nazism that doesn't understand anything.

It's entirely possible they're just looking for Kyle.

I understand he's about *this* tall.

[Castout]

Good riddance.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by tater

I didn't say modern Germany was culpable in nazi crimes, I said German soldiers were "nazis" as far as I was concerned since they fought to prolong the Reich, and hence everything bad it stood for. Any German who was happy or proud when Poland, France or anywhere else fell is no better—that leaves little of the population left to be "anti-nazi."

So let's say you were a German youngster in the late 30s/early 40s. One day, a Wehrmacht officer comes knocking on your door, telling you you're drafted into the army, report at your nearest Wehrmacht base tomorrow.
But instead of obeying the officer, you shout "**** Hitler!" in his face and go into hiding. In a nazi-infested country, reliable and courageous enough people are hard to find, but you're one of the lucky few and find a farmer miles out of town who lets you stay in exchange for some hard field labour. Meanwhile, you are labeled a traitor and your family gets arrested and put on the first train to Auschwitz. But hey, what does it all matter to you since you finally had the chance to defy Hitler

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

Especially those who were drafted, or who joined the military before 1933, right?

So I assume that if this were to happen to American soldiers, you'd have no problem with it? Serves em' right, I suppose?

Exactly, because access to unbiased sources of information is easy and unfettered in totalitarian states, and the price of dissent is minimal.

So EVERYONE in Germany knew exactly what was going on all the time. ANYONE who wasn't willing to risk his family and friends being arrested after he opposed the regime bears full responsibility.

It sometimes happens that people who've never actually lived through a particular type of experience prefer to believe that, if they did, they would do the "right thing" (usually determined to be "right" by virtue of their own hindsight) without question and without regard to the sacrifices it would entail. Consequently, they tend to judge very harshly anyone who actually did live through that experience and didn't do what they believe they would have had the knowledge, foresight, determination, and courage to have done themselves. Doing that is much easier than admitting that we are all subject to the same human frailties, failings, and limitations.

The reality is that none of us who weren't and aren't there can ever know what we would have done, even if we had been party to all the available information. Would I have had the courage to resist and fight back if it were only my life that was put at risk? Maybe. I would hope so. Would I have been willing to risk the lives of my friends and loved ones as well? I don't know. Nobody does, unless they've done it.

I like to believe that if my life were threatened, or if I saw someone's life being threatened, that I'd immediately take action and do whatever was necessary to defend those that needed defending. It's something I believe is the right thing to do, and it's something that I have been training myself to do for several years now. Do I think I could live with the consequences of doing what seemed necessary? Absolutely. Do I know for sure that I would actually step up and do it? No. The truth is, no matter how hard I train, and no matter how noble my intentions, when push came to shove I might freeze up entirely or misjudge the situation until it was too late to for me to do anyone any good.

You don't get the "A" until you've passed the test, and there are some tests that no one should ever have to take, and some that none of us will ever be required to take. Some people take them, or have the tests forced on them, and - by our standards - fail. But our standards are often based on a virtue we believe we possess even though it has never been tested to the same extreme, if at all. It's far too easy to condemn others for not making the choices we think they should have made when we have never been faced with making them ourselves.

[Skybird]

Tater,

the father of my father and his two brothers were drafted and taken away from their families, they all married young, had already families and children. They had to have these on their minds, too. My grandfather survived Russia, with one eye, one leg and one loung, his two brothers did not return.

The father of my mother was a tanker, France, later Russia. His brother was drafted, too - and later apparently got executed by the SS for insubordination when apparently he was tried to be drafter for the SS anbd their special operations they used to run in occuppied territories once the front had moved on - arresting Jews and all that stuff. My grandfather suvived injured, and traumatised untilt he end of his life. He was in six tanks being shot into flames , losing all crews. He felt guilty for surviving for all the rest of his life. Christzmas trees made him burst in tears, they reminded him of burning villages. Every coup0le of nights he woke up, yelling, crying, disoriented. He never got over what he had seen.

You can claim that most of the SS and SA guys were Nazis, they were selected for these organisations right because of their loyalty (although at the end, when it all already had desintegrated, the SS fighting units also took what they could get in men, and boys). You can also claim that most of the higher officer corps was guilty of misintertpreting the Prussian code of the military as an obedience to blindly follow Hitler - no matter whether they were Nazis, or not. As German soldiers, they might have had to liberate Germany from Hitler, one may argue. I do.

But most Wehrmacht soldiers and low ranks were no Nazis, but just were happen to born in the wrong place and wrong time, now trying to survive a mess they found themselves in. Not everybody is a heroic martyr, even more, in the beginning, for many of these young men invading Poland - mind you, they were 18, 20, 22 years young - it was something like an adventure in the woods, with campfires and stuff they had known from the boyscouts, and lies being fed to them in order to justify the attack on Poland (like Bush has fed your people lies in order to justify his attack on Iraq and hide the economic motives of his lobby groups behind it). They also had been raised in a country that has taught them to obey a cult around Hitler and the Nazis. Seen that way, it is even a miracle that many of them still were no active Nazis.

The later going of the war and the horror they went through and the high losses, helped to cure many of those surviving from any illusions about Hitler and the greatness of war. If you watch "Das Boot" - would you say all the characters panted in that movie were Nazis? At least one was, no doubt, but most of the men were just fighting for their lives, stickinjg to their hopes of a better life, sticking to a grim humour and a grim sense of pride when challenging their English opponents, to make the situation they were in merely bearable.

The German civil population - some knew things, others did not, some did not want to know (and thus had a feeling of things going wrong). There was a prominent group of Hitler-fans, no doubt, it some placers they even were the majority, also no doubt. But you ignore what massive intimidation can make people to do, and to ignore, in realities. Not everybody is a a superhero eager to sacrifice his family. And a strict bureaucratic tyranny helps to alientate people from realities and disconnecting them from crimes they assist to commit. That is no excuse, but an explanation. You cannot excuse facism and totalitarianism. But you can explain why technically and psychologically it functions - and can function very well indeed, even may be attractive to many receptive minds. Collectivism and herd-instincts also have something to do with it.

Most Nazis in Europe of that time, were Germans (and Austrians and Italians [fascists] ). But not every German (Austrian, Italian) was a Nazi.

You generalise quite much and stereotype quite much in your sentencing of the Germans.

Before you think that more Germans should have been educated, well informed and responsible citizens who took it upon them to free the country from Hitler, you may want to watch that old German war moview "The Bridge" (link). And before you think more people should have had the courage to stand up against a terror regime and accept their own execution in the going of their action, you may want to watch that newer movie "Sophie Scholl - The Final Days" and make sure that you would have that kind courage of yourself to remain loyal to your ideals in the face of torture and death. If you cannot be certain of that (and who can be certain if he has not lived through such a situation himself?), talk a bit quieter, then.

You are painting with an "extremistically" wide brush, really. It is as if I would say that due to racism and a fetishism around weapons and violence, all Americans are racist klansmen and trigger-happy violence-freaks, or all GIs would love to participate in war crimes like Mai Lai, if given the opportunity. Even when Bush was still there and I fired plenty of criticism at America, I still saw their people much, much more differenciated, knowing that when some Americans followed Bush and general hysteria knocked out the political system and it'S institutions, this still meant that still also many Americans were against it, just did not make themselves heared - and at some point of time also had no real chance to make themselves influential enough to prevent it. I do not compare Bush to Hitler here. I just want to illustrate to differenciate a bit more when talking about living people.

The content of ideologies, is something different, it is what it is. And thre ciontent of Nazi ideology is evil, no doubt.

In the same sense, also the mechanism of a totalitarian system is what it is.

However, the events of the past are the reason why much in context with Neo-Nazism is forbidden not only in Germany, but many European states. The young generation may not be able to understand that, for it has absolutely no link to that era anymore, what makes it prone to romanticisng about and thinking of it in terms that somewhat relativise the scale and the meaning of the crime tha Nazis have brought over Europe.

It'S also the reason why we are extremely irritated, when in the name of unlimited free speech those denying this past and excusing it and wanting to revive the heritage of the Hitler tyranny, including the hate and racism and murder, are given the room and opportunity to unfold again and to become strong again so that their harmful seed can grow again. Thinking this to the end means wishing for another holocaust and another world war - is this what free speech is there for? Is this outcome worth to crucify oneself over claimed unlimited free speech? The seed of NeopNazism grows indeed: the greatest Nazis-organisations, influencing all other Nazi organisations worldwide and helping to finance them, are not in Germany or Europe anymore, but since longer time - reside in America. If that is not an irony of history. And I would say condemning the German Nazis and waging war 70 years ago, but now helping the ideology that is responsible for that disaster back then, to become strong again ands gain influence again, is at least a self-contradiction. Not to mention that it leads to a regime where there is no freedom of speech, but the banning of it: by death penalty.

There is not only freedom of speech. There is also something called self-protection and self-preservation. Both need to be balanced.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by CCIP

In fairness, I think they're less Neo-Nazism as such and more just silly cargo cult Nazism that doesn't understand anything.

Most probably but in those dark savage days of WWII many people were forced to make some stark choices, the potential consequences of each decision being hard for any of us here and especially 'cargo cult' types to truly understand not having lived it.

Let us hope we are never tested in such a way in the future.

[joea]

Excellent post Skybird.

Yes I read all of it.

[Gerald]

From my standpoint, I think, what the police did investigate and are within their rights, one that is a pretty big thing to adm.and that takes resources away from more countries and people so it seems to be successful so long, but one an ongoing investigation is being carried

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by joea

Excellent post Skybird.

I second that.

Yes I read all of it.

Yeah, amazing, isn't it