report: Turkey attacks Kurdish bases: 120 die

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

So they will function correctly with US control systems. For example the Canadian Halifax class frigates use the US designed Mk-46 torpedo, Harpoon and Evolved Sea Sparrow missile so they are totally comparable with the US Navy's Aegis system. Aegis not only controls the weapons of an Aegis Cruiser/Destroyer it also can control the weapons of other ships in the group. So a US destroyer can take control of a Canadian frigate's weapons and guide them using its superior number of fire control radars, or the US destroyer could guide its weapons using the FCR of a Canadian frigate to boost its range. Also they use the same weapons to have a common inventory to draw from, the US stockpiles stores of arms in most Allied countries- so its nice if the local military can use the same munitions and spare parts as US forces.

Thank you TLAM Strike for that very knowledgeable and civilized answer.

Finland has the F-18's and the various repair-, training- and other systems that came with them. They were bought during the height of the 1990's recession and the purchase of the plane was done with a system of mutual trades, don't know the right English term for it. Anyway, the whole thing has been a bit of a debacle and there has been accidents etc. with the Hornets.

[NeonSamurai]

Does anyone else find the response levels to this sort of stuff disturbing? Massacre a bunch of Kurdish people, hardly anyone gives a damn. Yet if the US or Israel kills anyone.. Freak out over it (oh the humanity).

Talk about a double standard.

Does anyone else find the response levels to this sort of stuff disturbing?

I am just waiting for someone to start off with a carte blanche approach to Turkey because Turkey can do no wrong and if they could possibly be found to be doing wrong then its all acceptable really and anyone criticising Turkey for their policies and actions must just hate Turks

Yet if the US or Israel kills anyone..

Yep, if the US or Israel does it people are queing up to defend it while accusing anyone who has different views of somehow supporting terrorism.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Does anyone else find the response levels to this sort of stuff disturbing? Massacre a bunch of Kurdish people, hardly anyone gives a damn. Yet if the US or Israel kills anyone.. Freak out over it (oh the humanity).

Talk about a double standard.

I agree there is evident media bias at work here. If the US had bombed a few villages over the border in Pakistan, sent in special forces and killed 120-130, including women and children, the media, especially the arab media would be all over this.

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I am just waiting for someone to start off with a carte blanche approach to Turkey because Turkey can do no wrong and if they could possibly be found to be doing wrong then its all acceptable really and anyone criticising Turkey for their policies and actions must just hate Turks

Most people don't give Israel carte blanche. Usually just the opposite and expect things of Israel that no other country would tolerate. The US doesn't get carte blanche either (but I would say they get a lot more leeway in their actions, due to their position in the world).

Yep, if the US or Israel does it people are queing up to defend it while accusing anyone who has different views of somehow supporting terrorism.

And you got a whole whack of people on the other side queuing up to scream how evil and horrible country x or y is. With both sides being total hypocrites and trying to twist things to a political stance.

In this case none of the above is going on. Nobody gives a <censored> about the Kurds. They are just another group that everyone in the region hates and has been killing them for ages.

If there is one thing I hate above all else it is hypocrisy.

Most people don't give Israel carte blanche

I never said most people did I, but there is normally no shortage of individuals who do.

And you got a whole whack of people on the other side queuing up to scream how evil and horrible country x or y is.

Indeed, then you get those who condemn the specifics from both sides and attack the justifications given.

In this case none of the above is going on.

Perhaps a view of yesterdays inside story program would be a good start as it gives a turkish view a kurdish view and a view from Britain, though of course Bilge rat won't realise that as he is rather blinkered with his dislike for that particular media outlet who apparently don't report such things.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

The Eurofighter Typhoon, made completely in Europe and capable of using US or European munitions. It's being sold to several NATO countries.

Its also being sold to Saudi Arabia as well IIRC. Saudi uses a mix of US and European (mostly French and British) weapon systems.

Interestingly the sale to SA had to be approved by the US Government since the Eurofighter contains significant amounts of US technology.

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Thank you TLAM Strike for that very knowledgeable and civilized answer.

No problem. For a great example of NATO standardization with US Equipment read up on TADIL Systems. There are a bunch of different ones, Link 1, Link 4, Link 11, Link 22. They allow all forces hooked up to see each other and any targets the other units detect.

Finland has the F-18's and the various repair-, training- and other systems that came with them. They were bought during the height of the 1990's recession and the purchase of the plane was done with a system of mutual trades, don't know the right English term for it. Anyway, the whole thing has been a bit of a debacle and there has been accidents etc. with the Hornets.

Well the F/A-18 Hornet hasn't been accident free in US service either.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Turkey's treacherous role in the Gaza incident superceded the reporting on the Turkish offensive in the Kurdish area. The operation got some mentioning in the german news, but no major coverage. 10 Turks wounded, 12 Kurds killed, they wrote, and quotes of much nationalistic propaganda and martial threats spilled out by Erdoghan.

In these days that is no headline anymore. The Kurds do not raise any interest anywhere, and to Erdoghans split-tongued poisenous tirades most people already got used by now, somehow.

turkey wants to become a regional dominant power, and sees itself taking claim of the Osman heritage. their new martial posture against the Kurds and their ongoing denial of the Armenian genocide are just two of the more obvious symptoms for that. turkey is clearly turning away from the West, Washington and Europe. If they were a EU member, they nevertheless would do so - but abusing their influence via the EU to do evben more dmage to the West. currently they are busy with reducing and finally neutralising the last bastion of kemalistic influence - the constitutional court, and the military. chances are that these last bastion will fall to the relgious, too. And then it should become obvious for even the most stupid idiot in Europe or Washington that we escaped a worst case scanerio when blocking Turkey from the EU.

We must make them leave NATO as well. they are no longer that reliable ally that - admitted! - they have been for several decades during the cold war. The new Turkey formed by the AKP is no ally, but an opponent at least. and I can imagine future mid-term scenarios when western forces will clash with Turkish forces in the ME - indirectly as well as directly and head on. As I see it, Turkey's role becomes more and more a parallel to that of Pakistan.

I wish their military would start a coup and destroy the AKP, establishing a regime by the generals again. No ideal solution for a Western nation - but Turkey is no Wetsern nation, and in the oprient, dictatorships work quite well. At least they keep the religious in check - something that democracies are not strong enough to acchieve there.

All true Skybird except that you are forgetting one thing.
Europeans never really wanted Turkey in the union.
It was always the US pressing for this.
With all the problems we have, US ingerence in the european affairs is the last thing we need.
I say it again, for the all the stupid politicians we have, the greatest danger to a unified political and military europe has always been NATO. NATO is the beach head of the US in europe.
It has full filled its role during the cold war but now its just a leftover that does more damage than good.
We need a centralised european military force, without the americans. And NATO is an enourmous obstacle to achieving that goal.

[Bilge_Rat]

In a semi-related story which also surprisingly gets little play, Iran has shelled, bombed and invaded Iraqi territory for the past month:

ALI RASH, Iraq — This remote village high in the rugged mountains along the border with Iran has been deserted, its people having fled Iranian air and artillery bombardments with everything they could carry and whatever livestock that could be coaxed down the steep mountain trails.

Now the hundreds of Kurds who left Ali Rash and other mountain villages are living in sweltering refugee camp tents. They are at the center of questions about whether Iraq is willing or able to defend its borders with Iran — which has repeatedly breached the frontier in recent months.

The attacks on Ali Rash and at least a dozen other Kurdish villages have continued for more than a month and have included a foray by Iranian tanks one mile into Iraqi territory. But they have elicited only a tepid protest from Iraq’s government, including the release of a statement pleading with neighboring countries to honor its borders.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/17/wo.../17border.html

of course, Iran is not attacking Iraq, but Kurdistan which may explain the tepid response from Baghdad, but it is again hard to understand why this type of story does not get a bigger play in the news media or why it has not been raised in the U.N.

not surprisingly, I could not find one word about this story on Al Jazeera's english website.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by goldorak

All true Skybird except that you are forgetting one thing.
Europeans never really wanted Turkey in the union.
It was always the US pressing for this.
With all the problems we have, US ingerence in the european affairs is the last thing we need.
I say it again, for the all the stupid politicians we have, the greatest danger to a unified political and military europe has always been NATO. NATO is the beach head of the US in europe.
It has full filled its role during the cold war but now its just a leftover that does more damage than good.
We need a centralised european military force, without the americans. And NATO is an enourmous obstacle to achieving that goal.

I haven't forgotten US demands over Turkey at all - in the past I took too much flak that the Us ran a strategy of weakening the EU from within (as a potential rival on nthe world stage) by bringing turkey into the EU, and hoping to strengthen american influence on Turkey at the same time. But when turkey denied passage of US troops heading for Iraq, this should have rang some bells in Washington. maybe it did - but he consequences in thinking were to become even more determined to mistake wishes with reality: since 2003 it seems the Us demanded even louder that those stubborn Europeans should let Turkey in.

No chance, Sammy, never. Not even if Mexico would join the union, for Mexico is culturally quite close to the West, while Turkey is not.

a semi-related story which also surprisingly gets little play, Iran has shelled, bombed and invaded Iraqi territory for the past month:

Iran has been doing that for the past decade and more

but it is again hard to understand why this type of story does not get a bigger play in the news media

Because its not really news.

of course, Iran is not attacking Iraq, but Kurdistan

which doesn't really exist

or why it has not been raised in the U.N.

Who is going to raise it, the only people supporting those seperatists are those who have to pretend they are not supporting those seperatists and the people who have national and soveriegnty issues over these incidents and so might raise them have their own problems with the seperatists so they won't raise them.

not surprisingly, I could not find one word about this story on Al Jazeera's english website.

Yep the only recent PJAK article is about the executions in Iran

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Skybird

No chance, Sammy, never. Not even if Mexico would join the union, for Mexico is culturally quite close to the West, while Turkey is not.

I'm not so sure about that.
Let some governments be changed (and ours is pretty likely to not make it to the end of it's regular term) and Turkey will be invited again with a red carped and many apologies from our side.

The truth is just too inconvenient to admit it.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Does anyone else find the response levels to this sort of stuff disturbing? Massacre a bunch of Kurdish people, hardly anyone gives a damn. Yet if the US or Israel kills anyone.. Freak out over it (oh the humanity).

Talk about a double standard.

No kidding. One of my personal pet peeves when people bash the war in Iraq or put Germany on the stool of eternal guilt for the holocaust, while they cheerfully ignore all the holocausts since then and before then. Armenians, Russians, Russian Jews, Kurds, Shiites, half of Africa, Cambodia, China, Tibet, Vietnam, etc.... etc... nobody gives a rat's ass about them. I guess genocide is only an atrocity when there's a popular movie about it. Speaking of which, the Turks have been killing the Kurds for how long now? This is suddenly news? Must be a slow day.

I will refrain from using curse words to describe the hypocritical, self-centered, self-righteous......people that consider the invasion of Iraq to be unjust while they fall to their knees and beg forgiveness from the rest of the world for US intervention.

I do not count myself among their number. Politically, I'm more than happy to see other parts of the world tear themselves to pieces. More for US! Personally, I will and have put my own ass on the line to stop such atrocities, and I'd do it again, if they'd let me. Too bad the PMC's got nerfed, or I'd be sending in applications left and right to do my part. I guess I'll have to hold my breath for the omniscient states of the world to do something effective. Anyone got a cryo-stasis chamber I can borrow for forever?

I can literally feel my vocabulary degenerating into a veritable cornucopia of expletives as I write this, so I'll sign off with this: If you have a problem with killing for whatever reason, get your sorry ass on the line and do something about it!


I'll post something reasonable after I've calmed down.

[Jimbuna]

+10 James

Calling Mr. ITG....I think not

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Does anyone else find the response levels to this sort of stuff disturbing? Massacre a bunch of Kurdish people, hardly anyone gives a damn. Yet if the US or Israel kills anyone.. Freak out over it (oh the humanity).

Talk about a double standard.

Absolutely. Unfortunately even I can't make the US media look favourably upon the PKK (Kurdistan Workers Party).



Long live the PKK!