[REQ]'No Map-Contact Updates' done properly

[The General]

The whole point of having 'no map-contact updates' switched off is that you could well sink a friendly unless you properly identified who you were firing at. Unfortunately switching off the 'map-contact updates' reduces gameplay and enjoyment. This element needs an overhaul by either The Devs or a talented Modder. As it stands it's kinda all-or-nothing and I believe a happier medium can be found.

It should be adjusted so that, upon detection of a potential target, a single plot is made on the chart showing the vessel's approximate postion and course. It should not be identified as being friend or foe (red or blue) and the accuracy of it's postion/course etc should only be updated when new information is sent to the Navigator from whatever source you chose, be it calling out from the bridge whilst using binocs (obviously a gameplay element is introduced here by making each station a different experience to use and providing a different level of accuracy for data), the UZO, Periscopes or Sonar Suite (this station was done very well in SH4 for example). Further use of the Map tools (sextant, protractor etc) should provide an even better level of accuracy for your TDC Solution.

The enemy sensor real-time updates are beautifully designed in SH5, with the radius of visual and audible detection increasing/decreasing relative to your 'noise profile' and postition relative to target. I propose that the more information you gather about the target the more of this information is shown to you. For example: when you have an acurately identified the target, the map now shows a rough estimate of the range that the vessel can 'see' (it doesn't need to be updated in realtime, just when you make a new range-to-target measurement). The vessel shouldn't be identified as friend or foe until you are able to make-out the flag (in poor weather this would be at a reduced range, as per all visual sensors, giving you less time to plot an accurate Solution). An option for realtime updates should be available, but would only be for those who are new to the Series.

In summary: Throw 'No map-contact updates' out the window and have a selection in the Gameplay Menu for 'Realtime Map Updates On/Off'.

[reaper7]

Very well written. Yes the Map Contacts just dosen't work as of stock.
It's just too unuseable two switch off though - so no happy medium.
This should be high priority for the Devs to sort.
I like your ideas, hopefully they can be implemented one way or the other.

[ddrgn]

How any serious subsimmer could play with map contact updates on is well beyond me.....

[kylania]

Originally Posted by ddrgn

How any serious subsimmer could play with map contact updates on is well beyond me.....

That's the best part of Silent Hunter, both "serious" and well, "non-serious" subsimmers can play the way they want.

[The General]

You guys understand I'm proposing a new system that takes elements from both in order to serve the greater good? i.e. Gameplay...and Gameplay is god!

[etheberge]

At a minimum, I would like something like the plotting system in TMO or RFB. Replace the contact icons for ships with a generic dot not available at the two lowest zoom levels, no course trails, no pacmans or detection circles around the contact. Make the sonar contact bearing lines way more subtle. And of course get rid of the the tooltip that gives you the target type, range and speed when you hover the cursor on top of it.

I knew how to do most of this in SH4 by playing with the DDS files but it seems they changed how this works for SH5. Now it seems to be controlled by SHP files that look like this:

ContactDirectionSymbol.shp

0 
4
0.0 0.13481 0.0
-2.14312 0.13481 0.0
-2.14312 -0.13481 0.0
0.0 -0.13481 0.0
2
2.0 3.0 0.0
2.0 0.0 1.0

I'm guessing this file is for the course tails on the contact.

I understand the numbers represent a shape using a set of coordinates, but I have no idea how to open these in something other than a text editor to see the actual shape, edit it or replace it altogether with something else.

If anyone knows then please share :-)

These files also control the names on the map. If we can figure this out then we can change a lot of things on the map, including most of the contact stuff.

[Seeadler]

Shp files contain scaleable 2D polygon objects.

In ContactDirectionSymbol.shp
1. object -> 4 vertices = a quad
2. object -> 2 vertices = a line

to get rid off the course line, set the line vertices to zero

0 
4
0.0 0.13481 0.0
-2.14312 0.13481 0.0
-2.14312 -0.13481 0.0
0.0 -0.13481 0.0
2
0.0 0.0 0.0
0.0 0.0 0.0

[etheberge]

Very interesting Seeadler, thank for that info. You seem to know about this stuff, is there a program that can let us open and edit those shape files visually?

I tried a bunch of vector editors but none of were able to open those SHP files.

Originally Posted by Seeadler

Shp files contain scaleable 2D polygon objects.

In ContactDirectionSymbol.shp
1. object -> 4 vertices = a quad
2. object -> 2 vertices = a line

to get rid off the course line, set the line vertices to zero

0 
4
0.0 0.13481 0.0
-2.14312 0.13481 0.0
-2.14312 -0.13481 0.0
0.0 -0.13481 0.0
2
0.0 0.0 0.0
0.0 0.0 0.0

[thruster]

would it be easy to make all map contacts grey?
im not taken by the idea of knowing a ships range of awareness. [perhaps im misunderstanding something?]

[ironkross]

I've noticed when clicking on my ship's course setting if there are any ships in the area the ship icons appear, revealing their positions for miles around. And if I drag the course setting lines around the ship icons move on their course. It's a terrible spoiler ingame, you can't help but know those ships are there. This needs to be fixed.

[tater]

Originally Posted by ddrgn

How any serious subsimmer could play with map contact updates on is well beyond me.....

How any serious subsimmer could think that the "contacts off" paradigm is even remotely realistic is beyond me.

OP is right.

The plotting should be done by the plotter. Are you the captain, or some junior officer? Which is it?

The player should make observations, and those observations should be plotted on the map FOR HIM BY HIS CREW. Guess what, he doesn't brew his own coffee, either.

If you "mark" a target without taking a proper range, the bearing should be drawn out as a line with the option for the skipper to add a guessed range, aob, etc.

If you take a range, then the bearing line gets laid, then a point placed for the target. Again, aob, speed, heading etc can be added by the skipper as an optional addition.

On a 2d or further observation, your crew (as their training taught them) connects the dots, and since they were also properly trained to use a watch, they now also have the speed.

That is realistic. Neither Silent Hunter option is realistic.

[mobucks]

I like the ideas of the OP, what id really like to see is a simple ( ? ) icon on the map whenever a contact is visually sighted, not showing orientation or speed. That would still be a dead giveaway as to range though.

rant
I dont really consider myself a serious subsimmer but a lot of the fun of the game is taken out by knowing the exact location and hostility of contacts.

As it stands, its just so repetitive to be drawing lines and intercepting at 90 deg AOB within 500m so basicly every shot is the same.

I dont mind doing the math for the speed/AOB, but the stadimeter not working really sucks.
end rant

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Just have any spotted ship show up as a grey line. Like what happens when your sonar picks up a contact while on the surface. You know it is there, but dont know how far away, speed, direction, etc. this would be the way I would want it. Would be more like someone calling out " ship spotted bearing 290" , and that is all the info you get untill you actually look at the ship.
Don't know about you guys but I think it would make for a better game.


The more I think about it, this could be done by haveing your sonar work while on the surface but limited to the visual range of your deck crew, but only while on the surface. Once you submerge it would work as normal.

[TopCat]

Besides, there's a bug in the game with plotting the objects. When you go to the Sonar station, use it by yourself and then leave again, all the sonar contacts on the TAI-Map are lost forever (they're still there on the navigatoin map). Very annoying, don't know if this can be fixed in a mod.

[ddrgn]

Originally Posted by tater

How any serious subsimmer could think that the "contacts off" paradigm is even remotely realistic is beyond me.

OP is right.

The plotting should be done by the plotter. Are you the captain, or some junior officer? Which is it?

The player should make observations, and those observations should be plotted on the map FOR HIM BY HIS CREW. Guess what, he doesn't brew his own coffee, either.

If you "mark" a target without taking a proper range, the bearing should be drawn out as a line with the option for the skipper to add a guessed range, aob, etc.

If you take a range, then the bearing line gets laid, then a point placed for the target. Again, aob, speed, heading etc can be added by the skipper as an optional addition.

On a 2d or further observation, your crew (as their training taught them) connects the dots, and since they were also properly trained to use a watch, they now also have the speed.

That is realistic. Neither Silent Hunter option is realistic.

If you think balloons on your map with accurate real time information along with the type of ship with a radius showing its sensor range is realistic, well than, what can I do but laugh. You crazy people are so skilled but hardly no how to mark a contact on a map when you see it. Sad really, IMO anyone playing with these updates on sucks hard at this game ;]