The good old fashioned functional UI - Page 2

gutted · 03-16-10, 07:09 PM

I like the new UI as well. The only UI mod im using from darkwraith right now is the minimalist TDC dials. I tried the others, and uninstalled them. Good riddnace to that. I didn't pay 50 bucks to get a SHIV interface with an updated graphics engine.

Not saying the new one is perfect or anything, but im diggin' it. Just needs alittle love, not replacing. Nor am i saying that everything that's getting re-used is bad thing. Some of it SHOULD be re-used. But it needs more thought than just a plugging it back in as-is.

TopCat · 03-17-10, 01:30 AM

I do not like the new UI at all! When I buy a WWII Subsim I want to feel like I'm in a WWII Uboat and not in Captain Kirk's Enterprise. I do not insist at all on having good ole SH3 or SH4 back, but I want the nostalgic feeling of a WWII Sub, otherwise I could play a modern Sub Sim.

I disagree with Ducimus that reducing the UI in the way ubi did it is a progress. Why should this reduction of operability be a step forward in any direction?
However, I do like a new approach to Crew management whrere the role of the Captain is more tactical and more faced towards managing the crew and giving orders. But first and foremost I'm a great fan of the technical side of the Sim. And as a Captain I'm the boss and therefore I want to be able to operate all the main systems in the boat by myself if I like to. And what's the use of being able to walk through all the compartments of the boat, when I can't touch anything in there?

At least the TDC in the tower, the brain of our boat, should work properly and not being just a dead graphics peace to stare at.

That's why I do appreciate the work of Dark Wraith very much to bring us back operable dials and switches.

So why not going on in new directions keeping the good things of the past? Why doesn't ubi make everyone happy, the RPG fans as well as the technical nerds, if everything would be implemented in the Game engine? That's why I hope very much that modders like DarkWraith will go on with their work to bring us as much of this "technical realism" back as possible.

FIREWALL · 03-17-10, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

You too huh? I've avoided voice activation for that very reason.

As for dials vs digital readouts, the pro with the new UI is you can specify a depth right down to the single digit. With the dials im clicking 2 or 4 times to get the number i want.

At any rate, ill write up a post with pics when i get home from work (10 hours from now) and do my best to point out how the stock UI could be improved for posterity.

What year in the 30's\40's did U-boats have digital readouts ?

Westbroek · 03-17-10, 03:06 AM

They installed digital depth and speed gauges in early 1942... Briefly... They were promptly uninstalled when they realized it wasn't authentic to the traditional Uboots. Never get in the way of Germans and tradition.

Ducimus · 03-17-10, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopCat

I disagree with Ducimus that reducing the UI in the way ubi did it is a progress. Why should this reduction of operability be a step forward in any direction?

I said the THEME of the UI. THe UI itself is incomplete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

What year in the 30's\40's did U-boats have digital readouts ?

Your aruging asthetics about a USER INTERFACE. M'kay? Did i say, "hey all, lets put digitial redouts inside the uboat!" No, i did not. Those are two sperate items. User interface does not equal Uboat interior.

Lonectzn · 03-17-10, 03:16 AM

One of the things to be careful of is losing perspective in the push for realism.

I always play 100% realism. I switched it straight away without thinking on first start of SH5, and did the same in previous titles. I always add the realism mods and anything that will make it harder because I like the challenge and don't like artificial assistance. At the same time however, I recognise that the controls we use (mouse/keyboard) change the way we have to look at interaction.

For example, captains didn't have a lock button they could use to have the periscope follow a target. However, they didn't have the limitation of a mouse/keyboard either, and could easily multi task moving the periscope to follow a target, check range and issue navigation orders, all while having a good scratch. In this situation having the periscope auto follow locked targets is a perfectly reasonable and realistic solution, and doesn't detract from the simulation.

The way I see it, any orders that a captain could have shouted or info they could ask for should be instantly accessible in the interface by both the mouse and keyboard. Many people prefer one or the other. Make sliding drawers, keep it from getting in people's way, whatever, but at least have it there.

The core of the game is not in how the orders are issued or whether dials are digital or analog, it is in what the orders are and the decision making process of the player. The interface just needs to be convenient, straight forward and most of all complete.

Ducimus · 03-17-10, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonectzn

One of the things to be careful of is losing perspective in the push for realism.

I always play 100% realism. I switched it straight away without thinking on first start of SH5, and did the same in previous titles. I always add the realism mods and anything that will make it harder because I like the challenge and don't like artificial assistance. At the same time however, I recognise that the controls we use (mouse/keyboard) change the way we have to look at interaction.

For example, captains didn't have a lock button they could use to have the periscope follow a target. However, they didn't have the limitation of a mouse/keyboard either, and could easily multi task moving the periscope to follow a target, check range and issue navigation orders, all while having a good scratch. In this situation having the periscope auto follow locked targets is a perfectly reasonable and realistic solution, and doesn't detract from the simulation.

The way I see it, any orders that a captain could have shouted or info they could ask for should be instantly accessible in the interface by both the mouse and keyboard. Many people prefer one or the other. Make sliding drawers, keep it from getting in people's way, whatever, but at least have it there.

The core of the game is not in how the orders are issued or whether dials are digital or analog, it is in what the orders are and the decision making process of the player. The interface just needs to be convenient, straight forward and most of all complete.

Exactly!

edit:
and one item of note, which i forgot to mention. A preference to a minimalist interface that came with stock, is acutally, in and of itself, a push for more realism. For instance, i could say that it is very Unrealistic, having 6 dials stuck to your eyeball the entire time you play. The minimalist interaface's main goal is to reduce the footprint of the UI (while still making it functional), so as the player can more immerse themselves in whatever they are involved in. I want to see more of whats going on, and less of the UI.

Or another way to think about it, Ever watch a movie with subtitles on in your native language? Distracting isn't it? Thats the UI. Can't exactly turn it off, but you can make it less pronounced.

Lonectzn · 03-17-10, 03:37 AM

I do agree Ducimus.

Much as I heavily prefer the SH3 UI, it is really because the SH3 one has everything I need. The basic approach for SH5 is I feel cleaner and less in the way. A horribly and painfully unfinished one, but a simpler one nonetheless.

Minimalism doesn't have to mean ending up with things like the new ship recognition manual. Once everything that is necessary is added I'm sure it will end up a clean and efficient interface. I doubt the community will let it be any other way ;-)

U-Bones · 03-17-10, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonectzn

I do agree Ducimus.

Much as I heavily prefer the SH3 UI, it is really because the SH3 one has everything I need. The basic approach for SH5 is I feel cleaner and less in the way. A horribly and painfully unfinished one, but a simpler one nonetheless.

Minimalism doesn't have to mean ending up with things like the new ship recognition manual. Once everything that is necessary is added I'm sure it will end up a clean and efficient interface. I doubt the community will let it be any other way ;-)

IMO thre will definately be two camps on this, which I am ok with.

Myself, I just want an unobtrusive bar at the bottom that presents the appropriate information and control options. The UI is a RL tool you use to play, not part of the "game". The closer to "invisible" it can be, the less it interferes with "game" immersion.

Don't get me wrong, having clickable workable dials and such in the "game" also is -really- nice, and goes KNOTS to help increase immersion.

UI theme to me is less important than how minimal it can be while retaining required function. Not to say unimportant.

DragonRR1 · 03-17-10, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

IMO thre will definately be two camps on this, which I am ok with.

Myself, I just want an unobtrusive bar at the bottom that presents the appropriate information and control options. The UI is a RL tool you use to play, not part of the "game". The closer to "invisible" it can be, the less it interferes with "game" immersion.

Don't get me wrong, having clickable workable dials and such in the "game" also is -really- nice, and goes KNOTS to help increase immersion.

UI theme to me is less important than how minimal it can be while retaining required function. Not to say unimportant.

Absolutely agree. The UI look is secondary to it being minimal but functional. I personally don't mind having digital readouts. That said the theme does have some importance and am puzzled as to why UBI/the devs chose the ultra techie/ipod look especially when precious time would have been expended on designing and implementing it. Hopefully we will eventually get a choice either by the devs finishing the current UI and darkwraith/others doing a more WW2 theme or the modders doing both!

xxx4Dxxx · 03-17-10, 12:21 PM

well im seeing 2 sides here. you can say otherwise.. whatever .. ether way it would be nice 2 have a option @ the beginning menu to choose how you want your UI and what degree be it overwhelming or lacking. easy or hard. >digress to another thread

TheDarkWraith · 03-17-10, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxx4Dxxx

well im seeing 2 sides here. you can say otherwise.. whatever .. ether way it would be nice 2 have a option @ the beginning menu to choose how you want your UI and what degree be it overwhelming or lacking. easy or hard. >digress to another thread

you must be reading my mind.....that's what I'm working on now.

03-16-10, 07:09 PM	#16
gutted The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Orleans, LA. Posts: 1,379 Downloads: 487 Uploads: 11	I like the new UI as well. The only UI mod im using from darkwraith right now is the minimalist TDC dials. I tried the others, and uninstalled them. Good riddnace to that. I didn't pay 50 bucks to get a SHIV interface with an updated graphics engine. Not saying the new one is perfect or anything, but im diggin' it. Just needs alittle love, not replacing. Nor am i saying that everything that's getting re-used is bad thing. Some of it SHOULD be re-used. But it needs more thought than just a plugging it back in as-is. __________________ Solution Solver 2.3.2 - Visual Targeting Tools & Aids

03-17-10, 12:21 PM	#26
xxx4Dxxx Watch Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 18 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	well im seeing 2 sides here. you can say otherwise.. whatever .. ether way it would be nice 2 have a option @ the beginning menu to choose how you want your UI and what degree be it overwhelming or lacking. easy or hard. >digress to another thread Last edited by xxx4Dxxx; 03-17-10 at 12:33 PM.

03-17-10, 01:30 AM	#17
TopCat Helmsman Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 105 Downloads: 113 Uploads: 0	I do not like the new UI at all! When I buy a WWII Subsim I want to feel like I'm in a WWII Uboat and not in Captain Kirk's Enterprise. I do not insist at all on having good ole SH3 or SH4 back, but I want the nostalgic feeling of a WWII Sub, otherwise I could play a modern Sub Sim. I disagree with Ducimus that reducing the UI in the way ubi did it is a progress. Why should this reduction of operability be a step forward in any direction? However, I do like a new approach to Crew management whrere the role of the Captain is more tactical and more faced towards managing the crew and giving orders. But first and foremost I'm a great fan of the technical side of the Sim. And as a Captain I'm the boss and therefore I want to be able to operate all the main systems in the boat by myself if I like to. And what's the use of being able to walk through all the compartments of the boat, when I can't touch anything in there? At least the TDC in the tower, the brain of our boat, should work properly and not being just a dead graphics peace to stare at. That's why I do appreciate the work of Dark Wraith very much to bring us back operable dials and switches. So why not going on in new directions keeping the good things of the past? Why doesn't ubi make everyone happy, the RPG fans as well as the technical nerds, if everything would be implemented in the Game engine? That's why I hope very much that modders like DarkWraith will go on with their work to bring us as much of this "technical realism" back as possible.

03-17-10, 03:06 AM	#19
Westbroek Lieutenant Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: LA Posts: 256 Downloads: 121 Uploads: 0	They installed digital depth and speed gauges in early 1942... Briefly... They were promptly uninstalled when they realized it wasn't authentic to the traditional Uboots. Never get in the way of Germans and tradition.

03-17-10, 03:16 AM	#21
Lonectzn Overlord Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 8 Downloads: 156 Uploads: 0	One of the things to be careful of is losing perspective in the push for realism. I always play 100% realism. I switched it straight away without thinking on first start of SH5, and did the same in previous titles. I always add the realism mods and anything that will make it harder because I like the challenge and don't like artificial assistance. At the same time however, I recognise that the controls we use (mouse/keyboard) change the way we have to look at interaction. For example, captains didn't have a lock button they could use to have the periscope follow a target. However, they didn't have the limitation of a mouse/keyboard either, and could easily multi task moving the periscope to follow a target, check range and issue navigation orders, all while having a good scratch. In this situation having the periscope auto follow locked targets is a perfectly reasonable and realistic solution, and doesn't detract from the simulation. The way I see it, any orders that a captain could have shouted or info they could ask for should be instantly accessible in the interface by both the mouse and keyboard. Many people prefer one or the other. Make sliding drawers, keep it from getting in people's way, whatever, but at least have it there. The core of the game is not in how the orders are issued or whether dials are digital or analog, it is in what the orders are and the decision making process of the player. The interface just needs to be convenient, straight forward and most of all complete.

03-17-10, 03:37 AM	#23
Lonectzn Overlord Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 8 Downloads: 156 Uploads: 0	I do agree Ducimus. Much as I heavily prefer the SH3 UI, it is really because the SH3 one has everything I need. The basic approach for SH5 is I feel cleaner and less in the way. A horribly and painfully unfinished one, but a simpler one nonetheless. Minimalism doesn't have to mean ending up with things like the new ship recognition manual. Once everything that is necessary is added I'm sure it will end up a clean and efficient interface. I doubt the community will let it be any other way ;-)