Captain does and doesn't

[JScones]

I've always found Wolfgang Lüth's PROBLEMS OF LEADERSHIP IN A SUBMARINE lecture from DEC43 insightful. I recommend reading it to get an idea of life onboard his boat...from the man himself (not 20 years later by hearsay).

But pls bear in mind two things when reading:

1. Lüth was an IX Kaleun, thus his techniques are tuned for longer cruises. His approach would unlikely be as practical in II or VII boats, ie the majority of cases.

2. Many of his colleagues, including the Subsim-favourite Buchheim (Das Boot), ridiculed his speech and found his approach to management laughable, suggesting that his ideal was the exception rather than the norm. Indeed, Jordan Vause in his book U-Boat Ace: The Story of Wolfgang Luth states in response "that many officers in the German military establishment at the time, officers young and old, did not think it necessary to "like" their crews or to take care of them, any more than they accepted the idea of a crew as an extended family and the captain a surrogate father. It was not unusual for officers to be successful and disliked, even hated, at the same time."

Just offered to reaffirm the diversity and prove that extreme comments such as "Kaleuns always wiped their crew's butts" are just as wrong (if not moreso) as "Kaleuns never spoke to their crews".

[Ducimus]

One thing that bears mentioning is the Do's and Don't's change based on nationality. I think the line between what is true a US Navy Submarine Captain and a Germain Uboat captain is sometimes blured.

The command structure is entirely different in a fleet boat vs a uboat. A US Navy Captain had a Fire control party, and sometimes had his exec man the periscope, who was taking the range, bearing and AOB for him while he focused on the larger picture. For a Kreigsmarine Captain, this was probably unheard of.

[Alex]

@ JS :

Originally Posted by JScones

[...] states in response "that many officers in the German military establishment at the time, officers young and old, did not think it necessary to "like" their crews or to take care of them, any more than they accepted the idea of a crew as an extended family and the captain a surrogate father" [...]

Of course that doesn't mean it was the usual way of taking care of a crew, but I do think there was indeed a certain idea of family among the crew members of the same U-Boot.
Erich Topp himself stated that it was called « kamaradschaft » (companionship).

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

One thing that bears mentioning is the Do's and Don't's change based on nationality. I think the line between what is true a US Navy Submarine Captain and a Germain Uboat captain is sometimes blured.

The command structure is entirely different in a fleet boat vs a uboat. A US Navy Captain had a Fire control party, and sometimes had his exec man the periscope, who was taking the range, bearing and AOB for him while he focused on the larger picture. For a Kreigsmarine Captain, this was probably unheard of.

On the other hand the Kriegsmarine, like the Royal Navy, had a separate Engineering section, whose officers were outside the command structure. The US Navy had junior officers assigned as division heads, and their postings changed between ships until they learned every phase of shipboard operations.

I think the duties of the captain himself were fairly similar in all navies though, regarding what he did and what he didn't do.

[JScones]

Yes, I know many people who are surprised when they learn that the Kaleun was not necessarily the highest rank on the u-boat. I drafted a stock response quite a while ago explaining this for when questioned on it in regards to SH3Cmdr's Realistic Crew option (I know the question/complaint/rant will come up again at some point):

In WWII there were two general streams of U-boat officers - "Line" and "Engineering" (and "Medical" in the later years). In some instances the LI (Engineering stream) would actually outrank the Commander (Line stream) either in seniority or rank (look at U-516 for example, at one stage near the end of the war the Commander was an ObLt whilst the LI was a highly decorated KptLt). And it certainly occurred where a newly promoted ObLt U-boat Commander (such as all of us every time we start a "new" career*) would be "outranked" by the existing ObLt LI.

I should also point out that if something happened to the Commander at sea, it would be the next highest Line officer (ie the IWO/Exec) that would take over command, even if the LI was higher ranked (there are *many* instances where the Commander was an ObLt, the LI was an ObLt and the Exec was an Lt).

[kptn_kaiserhof]

when it comes to the captain hes the most powerful man on the boat

[Rosencrantz]

JScones wrote:

I've always found Wolfgang Lüth's PROBLEMS OF LEADERSHIP IN A SUBMARINE lecture from DEC43 insightful.

Yep, me too. And what Ducimus said about differencies between a US and a German skipper is, I think, also true. That's why it's interesting to read and learn about how different countries has set up their command organization, or how are different bills manned, for example. It's also interesting how much you actually can read "between the lines", at least after some studies and maybe if you have military background yourself. (Pretty much same thing what intelligence guys are often trying to do.)

Second thing is that my original examples were at least somewhat wrong or missleading, like target plotting example. However, it's nice to see how most of you got the right idea, about what I'm trying to say.

It's just that sometimes it drives me almost crazy when someone is telling that CO is not interested in this or that. From my own past I can recall three very good leaders, two from the army and one from civilian life. What was common to all these three was that they were always interested in everything. Both business and people. I think it was that what made them special. (And I'm not talking about nit-picking, or how it's said in english... )


Greetings,
-RC-

[Sailor Steve]

Good points. A good commander does take an interest in his men, and in their jobs. In fact a naval officer learns to perform most of the tasks on his ship, and serves as the head of probably every department at on point or another during his career.

But the question was what does the captain actually do. He commands. he doesn't load the torpedoes, or even fire them. He doesn't steer the boat, or man the dive planes. He doesn't turn the valves. He doesn't cook the food. He doesn't man the guns. He knows how to use the sextant, and almost surely double-checks the work of the navigator, who is usually still learning the craft. Sure, he knows how to do pretty much all those things, but it's not his job to actually do them. That's why we still talk about Aces Of The Deep as such a wonder sim. You were the captain, and your job was to get your boat to where it would do the most good and your crew's job was to make sure you were able to do yours.

[JScones]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

But the question was what does the captain actually do. He commands. he doesn't load the torpedoes, or even fire them. He doesn't steer the boat, or man the dive planes. He doesn't turn the valves. He doesn't cook the food. He doesn't man the guns. He knows how to use the sextant, and almost surely double-checks the work of the navigator, who is usually still learning the craft. Sure, he knows how to do pretty much all those things, but it's not his job to actually do them.

Exactly. Being interested in something and doing something are quite different. The two should not be confused or seen as the same.

For example, I'm sure RC that the three very good leaders to which you refer did not actually do your job, but took an interest in what you did and how it contributed to the bigger picture (ie in conjunction with what their other staff did).

[JU_88]

SHV Uboat 'managment' sim

Give orders!
"You there sailor boy, clean my shoes, then make soup, scrub deisels with your tooth brush and then write a patrol report that makes me look good, I expect to see it on my desk in the morning, any questions and you can talk to my P.A (No 1)"

Then you spend the rest of the patrol having lunch, arranging 'meetings' and reading 'Uboats for Dummies' - because only got the job based on your delegetion skills'

Later you get premoted to BDU where you get to sit on your ass all day in front of an enigma machine, pressing the 'keep-up-the-good-work' & Sende buttons.
You try to impress Donitz by pretending you want to be his friend -or pretending to look busy and important, occasionally you try to make him laugh with crap jokes you stole off a comedian somewhere.

[looney]

Gamewise we want to do the main task of a Kaptain and his LI... Sink ships.

[Rosencrantz]

To Steve and JScones:


Yep, you are both right. As Steve wrote:

But the question was what does the captain actually do.

and JScones:

the three very good leaders to which you refer did not actually do your job, but took an interest in what you did

Very much Yep. And when I was calling after precision in the first post, maybe it is that I haven't been that much precise myself either. And again we can just learn, how it's often difficult to be precise.

However, one thing I always try to tell youngsters, who haven't been in the military, is that business there is not always as straightforward as it's quite often thought. Probably one of the best examples releated to subs is Mush Morton, who gave the scope to O'Kane and took TDC himself. You know, those men weren't just standing in somewhat pre-ordered position like glued, but after they got the idea they put it into work. And I think that's something what is happening all the time in different ships or units.

And to Ju_88: If you ever read my very first post, you probably would know that I wasn't talking about "SHV Uboat 'managment' sim", like you suggested.

Greetings,
-RC-

[JU_88]

@ RC - Aw lighten up mate, my post was not an attempt a scarcasm directed at you or anyone, It was just a harmless joke damn it. No offence was intended
Im not even taking sides on this one, but er.. sorry (for what its worth)

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by JU_88

"You there sailor boy, clean my shoes, then make soup, scrub deisels with your tooth brush and then write a patrol report that makes me look good, I expect to see it on my desk in the morning, any questions and you can talk to my P.A (No 1)"

And then get negative renown as you become "the captain no one wants to ship with". Sullen, rebellious crew. Rumors spreading about "the Captain Bligh of the Kriegsmarine."

Originally Posted by Rosencrantz

Probably one of the best examples releated to subs is Mush Morton, who gave the scope to O'Kane and took TDC himself. You know, those men weren't just standing in somewhat pre-ordered position like glued, but after they got the idea they put it into work. And I think that's something what is happening all the time in different ships or units.

Good points. That's kind of what "Weapons Officer Assistance" did in SH3, though you had to make the sightings yourself. It would be interesting to see how that could be implemented accurately and realistically.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

I don't know if its been brought up or not, but he should have to sleep once in a while. Being at sea for a month and not taking a nap may have the crew begin thinking that the Kaulen is a crack head.