'Seawolves' contains Mods by...

[Abraham]

Hi Beery,
If what you describe is the legal situation then something sucks.
I am sure you are right that X-1 will claim copyrights over 'their' product. But would those copyrights (or more accurate: copy-wrongs) be upheld in Court against the modders who only intended to serve our community (and have some fun in the meantime)? And could that result in the Doomsday scenario you describe - modders being taken to Court for making available for free their own mods?
If it's true then the law makes stealing mods a lucrative side-job...

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Abraham

Hi Beery,
If what you describe is the legal situation then something sucks.
I am sure you are right that X-1 will claim copyrights over 'their' product. But would those copyrights (or more accurate: copy-wrongs) be upheld in Court against the modders who only intended to serve our community (and have some fun in the meantime)? And could that result in the Doomsday scenario you describe - modders being taken to Court for making available for free their own mods?
If it's true then the law makes stealing mods a lucrative side-job...

I dunno. I'm no lawyer. I'm just speculating - bad habit I know. The problem is more related to fear than law anyway. If Seewolfe does have a copyright notice - which it undoubtedly will have, who among us knows the law enough to be sure that my doomsday scenario isn't possible. I know I don't, so I'm going to be a bit worried about publishing mods for free that some disreputable company has claimed a copyright on (albeit unfairly). Not that it'll stop me, but it will worry me, and others might decide they don't want the worry, so they won't use a mod they should be free to use, and that small defeat means that the good guys lose out, if only in a small way.

[Hawkers]

I dunno. I'm no lawyer. I'm just speculating - bad habit I know. The problem is more related to fear than law anyway. If Seewolfe does have a copyright notice - which it undoubtedly will have, who among us knows the law enough to be sure that my doomsday scenario isn't possible. I know I don't, so I'm going to be a bit worried about publishing mods for free that some disreputable company has claimed a copyright on (albeit unfairly). Not that it'll stop me, but it will worry me, and others might decide they don't want the worry, so they won't use a mod they should be free to use, and that small defeat means that the good guys lose out, if only in a small way.

I dunno either. What I do know is that if I was one of the aggrieved modders, I'd be taking steps right now to

a) put some sort of copyright notice/legal disclaimer in the readme of my mod

b) Be seeking the advice of a lawyer conversant with international/EU copyright law.

AFAIK, Irishred has stuck on a copyright/legal notice in the readme of his latest version of 'Radiolog'. Other modders who claim to have had their stuff stolen by X1 should do the same.

As far as seeking professional legal advice goes. I don't know if anybody has actually done this. Terrapin has said 'Lawsuits are being prepared', but did not elaborate.

If what you're saying turns out to be true, Beery, then the modding community NEEDS TO GET IT"S LEGAL ACT TOGETHER VERY QUICKLY.

Because once this X1 'product' hits the shelves (complete with copyright) it's 'game over' for those talented, ripped-off guys.

And modders happily and willingly sharing their work with us over the internet will become a thing of the past.

Hawkers

[Elder-Pirate]

Originally Posted by Beery

The problem as I see it is that if X1 gets these stolen mods published in a commercial form, and if they make money from them, they may automatically have a strong de facto ownership claim since they have a financial stake on these mods - which means that if the original authors of these mods try to release those mods (which are their own work) for free, X1 could even take them to court and have their own case in terms of loss of revenue, etc. The courts very likely regard copyright as only meaningful when loss of revenue is at issue. In such a case, the courts could be persuaded to disallow testimony regarding the original authorship, since the original authors ascribed no monetary value to the mod. That means that anything in the Seewolfe mod could be deemed illegal for any of us to use in free mods, even if one of us was the original author of that part of the mod. If Seewolfe is released in commercial form, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will have a copyright attached to it. If X1 are unprincipled enough to steal other peoples' work, do you really think they would balk at using a lawsuit to take some modmakers to the cleaners financially?

Good grief Beery thats scarery. I sure hope it dosn't come to that.

[Frank]

I'm no Lawyer, but I personally believe that X-1 having any success with this CD of theirs will be marginal, and were they to persue legal action after their CD is produced would be a waste of time/money/effort.

Firstly, All the current modders are free to "mod" and have the parent company's permission. UBI is much bigger than X1 and up to this date are ok with all you have done. That 'trail' is and has remained unmolested to date, and even after X1 garbage comes out, it will remain a seperate link/permission path.

Secondly, Should you mod something off the SEEWOOFS CD, then they might have somewhat of a case, but persuit of it will bear a tree barron of fruit. What is their presedent? -> "We took mods off the internet as our sourse of data, modded them, then sold them. Then those modders came along and modded our mods-making their own mods again and giving them for free!" Who would waste their time even hearing such retarted rubbish?!

Thirdly, I say let them sink should they persue the original modders in any form. I am willing to back any modder up with a notorized statement, or in person testimony of who modded "first", and who had "first permission".

This SeaWoofs CD will find its way in the bargain bin rather quickly, or at Ebay for $.01.

Lastly, even if they did try to take someone to court for modding "their" mods, is there any presedent for this? If not, then they have a costly uphill battle on the way that they will stand to lose alot more then they could ever gain. I say let the fools talk all they want, its all "Wind and Smoke"!

Frank

X1 doesn't have the financial background to be able to sue anyone - and I'm pretty (the usual 99.somewhat percent) sure Ubi will NOT support them in any way.


'Seascam' is already history, X1 might not know it by now...

[Shadow9216]

The courts very likely regard copyright as only meaningful when loss of revenue is at issue

Not true, a great many things have been copyrighted and/or patented which have never seen the light of day; owners have successfully sued anyone who encroached upon their works, even when it had never been offered for sale. The litmus test has been "did the defendant know the works in question were the property of the plaintiff at the time of the infringement?"

With the help of Terrapin and this forum, you modders have very strong footing for your claims. It will be easy to provide ample evidence to establish a timeline from start to finish. As many/most of you announce your intent ahead of time, then discuss it throughout development, then post it on Terrapin's site, there's a detailed history. It would be incumbent upon anyone holding a prior claim to speak up before your mod is delivered. Claiming after it's been published "hey! I had that idea first" is a little indefensible.

The threat though is that an unscrupulous modder might monitor your debate, rush through their own version, then publish it. That happens with products all the time- but since you originated the idea, they can't claim exclusive ownership, only offer a different mod, which must compete in the marketplace.

[Beery]

Well, that's good to know. But the problem is still there, and I fear that unless someone takes real legal action against X1, they will succeed in cheating the community. I hate to say it, but I think it has reached the point where the mod-makers who have been wronged must either do something or let it go altogether. All this talk will be completely ineffective. If only there was someone here who knew the law on this, and who could direct those of us who are affected as to what the most effective thing to do would be.

[Drebbel]

Originally Posted by Beery

Well, that's good to know. But the problem is still there, and I fear that unless someone takes real legal action against X1, they will succeed in cheating the community.

If you are all really sure of this you could contact the German Police and file a complaint ?

Its free And it is atleast a good start.

The X1 director's name and address are listed on the X1 website.

You could contact the following Police station:
Polizeistation Mörfelden-Walldorf
Okrfiteler Straße 5
64546 Mörfelden-Walldorf
Telefon: 06105 / 40 06 0
Telefax: 06105 / 40 06 16

Originally Posted by Beery

Well, that's good to know. But the problem is still there, and I fear that unless someone takes real legal action against X1, they will succeed in cheating the community. I hate to say it, but I think it has reached the point where the mod-makers who have been wronged must either do something or let it go altogether. All this talk will be completely ineffective. If only there was someone here who knew the law on this, and who could direct those of us who are affected as to what the most effective thing to do would be.

Beery,

the problem is that it's copyright law. It's a grey zone...the outcome of a lawsuit will be affected by 1.) the argumentation of the lawyer, 2. the court asnd the judge. 3.) the arguments of X1's lawyer.

Class action lawsuits aren't possible in Germany. One further problem is the jurisdictional amount of the case: X1 is a rather poor 'company' (dunno if it's a registered company according to German law ata all...?), and it should be difficult to find an attorney to defend a modders rights, just because the attorney's fees are calculated in relation to the jurisdictional amount of a case in Germany.


My advice is to make clear that UBI can only lose in every aspect one can think of if they are allowing the X1 addon.

If the legal department of UBI jumps in (hired lawyers...), it would mean nothing but good things for UBI's sales and image, the community of players and all modders...

[Abraham]

As a lawyer - though not practicing and certainly no expert in intellectual ownership and/or copyright - I feel that Shadow9216's statement appeals more to what I would consider as the law than Beery's speculations. Not that I don't understand his worries and the worries of many on this site though.
I must say feel very good about the way the community is dealing with the X 1 problem and with Deathping. First there was some confusion but as usual we got our own act together and with the help of Neal and John we discussed this potental 'explosive' matter in a level haeded way and gave it maximum exposure.

Originally Posted by Beery

... I fear that unless someone takes real legal action against X1, they will succeed in cheating the community.

I don't think legal action is advisable at the moment. Let's wait how this X 1 thing devellops.
And "cheating the community"? No way, a few days ago there was even talk of dividing the community. Now we are stronger and more united on this issue than ever.
The ones who will be cheated are the people outside the community who will buy this X 1 product. But I doubt if that will be many...
Still, let's watch X 1 and Deathping closely!

Originally Posted by Drebbel

If you are all really sure of this you could contact the German Police and file a complaint ?

Its free And it is atleast a good start.

The X1 director's name and address are listed on the X1 website.

You could contact the following Police station:
Polizeistation Mörfelden-Walldorf
Okrfiteler Straße 5
64546 Mörfelden-Walldorf
Telefon: 06105 / 40 06 0
Telefax: 06105 / 40 06 16

THAT might be a good possibilty, too....I'll help if translation s needed. Please send it to my email addy, not through PM (account swamped...)

[Beery]

Sounds like a letter-writing campaign to Ubisoft might be an idea. I urge everyone concerned about this issue to write a letter to Ubisoft about this. Let them know your concerns, and how allowing X1's 'theftware' mod will undermine the mod community and thus adversely affect Ubisoft itself.

Hey, I like that word: 'theftware'! LOL. Did I just invent that, or did someone else invent it first?

[Shadow9216]

Uh, I already copyrighted that and now you, uh, like owe me money or something? Yeah, that was it... :rotfl:

Originally Posted by Beery

Sounds like a letter-writing campaign to Ubisoft might be an idea. I urge everyone concerned about this issue to write a letter to Ubisoft about this. Let them know your concerns, and how allowing X1's 'theftware' mod will undermine the mod community and thus adversely affect Ubisoft itself.

Hey, I like that word: 'theftware'! LOL. Did I just invent that, or did someone else invent it first?

How about posting a draft of a letter inhere, so people can use it?