You sure they're dead?! - Page 2

GoldenRivet · 07-03-09, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

Actually, they destroyed the mortartube. But still, waste.

that mortar tube will never fire on allied troops again.

no waste seen from my perspective.

Stealhead · 07-03-09, 04:17 PM

OK then but a being a bit more specifc in the first post would been helpful as it came off as targeting all prior posters.Sure I agree with the "hand tied behind the back" anyone who seeks to use an innocent perosn as a sheild is not what I wwould classify as a human being.An Apache being pretty close within a mile or so of a given target would have a better idea what the situation was. What is not really shown in these videos is the level of contact with a unit on the ground who may be even closer than the Apache and providing the crew with a picture of what is going on.

As to the ROE question I cant answer that you would have to ask someone in an Apache or what ever other type aircraft might be hands unit. I would say if the likely damage where to be all to property he is dead and they would pay the owner for damages.(unless the target was the owner.) If there where known civilans such as his family thye would not attack.(of course they have to cleary know they where there and sadly for an innocent family member you cant always know everything.)What can be said is that the other side has 0 problem killing no matter who is in the way and they also expressly target civilans as well as soliders.

I have seen a clip though I cant find it now on youtube where you could here the ground troops raido and they tell the apache to come around to the target from a certain heading because the one the chopper was on would result in the rounds also hitting an Iraqi home the family was with the americans but they still did not want to damage it.

I assume the reason that the insurgents appear to be unaware is that the Apache could be over a mile away and not be making enough noise to get atteantion they can hear it Im sure but not well enough for them to be concerned do to more direct threats like ground forces very close by.

Dowly · 07-03-09, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

that mortar tube will never fire on allied troops again.

no waste seen from my perspective.

And what if the building right next to it would've been not so strong and would have collapsed from the 2 blasts, possibly burying civvies under it?

Would you still say it wasnt a waste?

GoldenRivet · 07-03-09, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

And what if the building right next to it would've been not so strong and would have collapsed from the 2 blasts, possibly burying civvies under it?

Would you still say it wasnt a waste?

and i suppose the two men carrying the mortar tube take the care to consider "civvies" in their exploits?

07-03-09, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Sure I agree with the "hand tied behind the back" anyone who seeks to use an innocent perosn as a sheild is not what I wwould classify as a human being

It matters not how you classify the actual target , what matters is that in a tribal/clan society it matter as a hell of a lot who actually kills the "shield".
The Taliban were on the way out in Afghanistan prior to the invasion , they had little popular support , they had very much outstayed their welcome ....but now they are back in bigger numbers with lots of local support.
While in Iraq the big change came about with the fiasco in Fallujah, the supposed targets melted away and you ended up with a hell of a lot more locals out for blood.
A few Hellfires are relatively inexpensive in the short term big picture , but the fallout from their use in a residential area can be very expensive in the long run.

Still on the positive side, at least the use of the AC-130 in residential ares is not really an issue anymore.

Stealhead · 07-03-09, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

and i suppose the two men carrying the mortar tube take the care to consider "civvies" in their exploits?

Right on.Like I said they have 0 concern as to the harm thier actions could cause a non-combatant.The mortar is more likely to kill innocent people and destroy thier property than a hellfire any day of the week but they dont care at all.In fact it apperas to be thier goal to try as hard as possiable to get innocent people hurt.While ours is to try as best as possiable to avoid this we ae not perfect but Id rather support the side who trys to avoid innocent deaths than compare them in same light as the side the enjoys the idea of killing innocent people people of thier same relgion no less.(though the insurgents and such have a gross version of Islam)

Letum · 07-03-09, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

and i suppose the two men carrying the mortar tube take the care to consider "civvies" in their exploits?

That's hardly a justification for someone else not considering civvies.

Although I see no significant threat to civvies here.

heartc · 07-03-09, 06:07 PM

Yeah, Let's GO! Let us all critizise our soldiers, who were on the spot there, for maybe conducting...tandadamm...OVERKILL!...tadamm, from our comforty chairs in our rooms in front of our monitors!!! So that we can feel like very concerned and morally aware individuals, unlike those rude bastard soldiers!! Because in the end, it was this kind of armchair moralist crap that drove the Nazi ideology from Europe and into oblivion, right? Right, it wasn't the people who were actually there, wading through machine gun fire - it were some moralist a$$holes sitting in their chairs several thousand miles away, giving their opinion on every single shot!

Hey, do you even KNOW what "TALIBAN" MEAN? I know a female Doctor who comes from there, no, who FLED from there after her family was BUTCHERED by the Taliban, you pathetic dreamers. Do you KNOW what kind of ideology the Taliban *pressed* unto the people there? Can you even imagine to what pityfull existance the Taliban fundamentalist dictatorship reduced the people to, and especially the women? Do you even CARE?
No. What you care about is whether 9/11 was an inside-job and whether some gunshots, Hellfire or Tow missile was over-kill!

I say OVERKILL THE TALIBAN ANY DAY. TWICE. You won't win the "hearts and minds" of the people there, who are totally living in fear of the Taliban, until you destroy the Taliban ANYWHERE and TOTALLY.

You couldn't land on the beaches of Normandy in 1944 with the pretext of winning the "hearts and minds" of the Germans, and neither can you do so in Afghanistan, until those who are the reason why you went there in the first place are TOTALLY DESTROYED, because THEY OWN the hearts and minds through fear, violence and force.

Dowly · 07-03-09, 08:11 PM

Jeebus, take a chill-pill will you?

Letum · 07-03-09, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

Jeebus, take a chill-pill will you?

What he lacks in eloquence he makes up for in shouting.

07-03-09, 11:06 PM

Well, if the statement that, everyone gets the government they deserve, is a truism. Is it not also true one can can get the warlord or insurgent they desreve. Its not like they are trying to rid themselves of their 'bad people'.

If that is the case, can they not also be part of the death that the warlord brings upon them?

Captain Vlad · 07-03-09, 11:21 PM

If that was a Hellfire missile, the warheads are generally shaped charge, aren't they? Most of the force of the blast would be directed into the ground, not into the surrounding buildings. Wouldn't be the case with 30mm, which can bounce all around and go through things.

I don't see any real issue here. Would you rather they flattened the whole place with artillery fire?

Geez.

Letum · 07-04-09, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CastleBravo

Well, if the statement that, everyone gets the government they deserve, is a truism. Is it not also true one can can get the warlord or insurgent they desreve. Its not like they are trying to rid themselves of their 'bad people'.

If that is the case, can they not also be part of the death that the warlord brings upon them?

How much would you say that you personally deserve your government?

Skybird · 07-04-09, 04:00 AM

Can we agree on that they did not target civilians, but badguys and a mortar. The rest is dictated by the logic of war: minimise risk to your own side, maximise losses to the enemy side, deny options to the enemy side.

HunterICX · 07-04-09, 04:07 AM

2 missiles, 2 hits...equipment and targets neutralized
Mission completed.

HunterICX

07-03-09, 06:07 PM	#23
heartc Samurai Navy Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Munich Posts: 562 Downloads: 71 Uploads: 0	Yeah, Let's GO! Let us all critizise our soldiers, who were on the spot there, for maybe conducting...tandadamm...OVERKILL!...tadamm, from our comforty chairs in our rooms in front of our monitors!!! So that we can feel like very concerned and morally aware individuals, unlike those rude bastard soldiers!! Because in the end, it was this kind of armchair moralist crap that drove the Nazi ideology from Europe and into oblivion, right? Right, it wasn't the people who were actually there, wading through machine gun fire - it were some moralist a$$holes sitting in their chairs several thousand miles away, giving their opinion on every single shot! Hey, do you even KNOW what "TALIBAN" MEAN? I know a female Doctor who comes from there, no, who FLED from there after her family was BUTCHERED by the Taliban, you pathetic dreamers. Do you KNOW what kind of ideology the Taliban pressed unto the people there? Can you even imagine to what pityfull existance the Taliban fundamentalist dictatorship reduced the people to, and especially the women? Do you even CARE? No. What you care about is whether 9/11 was an inside-job and whether some gunshots, Hellfire or Tow missile was over-kill! I say OVERKILL THE TALIBAN ANY DAY. TWICE. You won't win the "hearts and minds" of the people there, who are totally living in fear of the Taliban, until you destroy the Taliban ANYWHERE and TOTALLY. You couldn't land on the beaches of Normandy in 1944 with the pretext of winning the "hearts and minds" of the Germans, and neither can you do so in Afghanistan, until those who are the reason why you went there in the first place are TOTALLY DESTROYED, because THEY OWN the hearts and minds through fear, violence and force. __________________ Last edited by heartc; 07-03-09 at 06:23 PM.

07-03-09, 11:21 PM	#27
Captain Vlad Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pollard, Oklahoma Posts: 679 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	If that was a Hellfire missile, the warheads are generally shaped charge, aren't they? Most of the force of the blast would be directed into the ground, not into the surrounding buildings. Wouldn't be the case with 30mm, which can bounce all around and go through things. I don't see any real issue here. Would you rather they flattened the whole place with artillery fire? Geez. __________________ "Stop sounding battlestations just to hear the alarm."

07-04-09, 04:00 AM	#29
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,649 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Can we agree on that they did not target civilians, but badguys and a mortar. The rest is dictated by the logic of war: minimise risk to your own side, maximise losses to the enemy side, deny options to the enemy side. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

07-04-09, 04:07 AM	#30
HunterICX Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2006 Location: Malaga, España Posts: 10,750 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	2 missiles, 2 hits...equipment and targets neutralized Mission completed. HunterICX __________________

07-03-09, 04:17 PM	#17
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	OK then but a being a bit more specifc in the first post would been helpful as it came off as targeting all prior posters.Sure I agree with the "hand tied behind the back" anyone who seeks to use an innocent perosn as a sheild is not what I wwould classify as a human being.An Apache being pretty close within a mile or so of a given target would have a better idea what the situation was. What is not really shown in these videos is the level of contact with a unit on the ground who may be even closer than the Apache and providing the crew with a picture of what is going on. As to the ROE question I cant answer that you would have to ask someone in an Apache or what ever other type aircraft might be hands unit. I would say if the likely damage where to be all to property he is dead and they would pay the owner for damages.(unless the target was the owner.) If there where known civilans such as his family thye would not attack.(of course they have to cleary know they where there and sadly for an innocent family member you cant always know everything.)What can be said is that the other side has 0 problem killing no matter who is in the way and they also expressly target civilans as well as soliders. I have seen a clip though I cant find it now on youtube where you could here the ground troops raido and they tell the apache to come around to the target from a certain heading because the one the chopper was on would result in the rounds also hitting an Iraqi home the family was with the americans but they still did not want to damage it. I assume the reason that the insurgents appear to be unaware is that the Apache could be over a mile away and not be making enough noise to get atteantion they can hear it Im sure but not well enough for them to be concerned do to more direct threats like ground forces very close by.

07-03-09, 08:11 PM	#24
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,054 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Jeebus, take a chill-pill will you?

07-03-09, 11:06 PM	#26
CastleBravo Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Well, if the statement that, everyone gets the government they deserve, is a truism. Is it not also true one can can get the warlord or insurgent they desreve. Its not like they are trying to rid themselves of their 'bad people'. If that is the case, can they not also be part of the death that the warlord brings upon them?