Realistic Enemy AI?

[Eesocks]

Hi, recently returned to SH4 after a long break(almost 5 years)and was wondering if there are any mods to make the enemy AI more realistic. I.ve tried the latest TMO and RFB and both seem to be to have flawed Enemy AI.
For example in Jan 43 after attacking a convoy I went to 400ft passing a thermal layer at 150ft and I still got pinged!-and then sunk! This was using TMO.
On another occasion, this time with RFB, I spent an hour with 3 destroyers running rings around me while I was at depths between 80' and periscope depth and took no damage at all. Eventually after sinking 2 of them and crippling the 3rd I headed for the open sea(I was on photo recon in Manilla bay)picking up 2 more escorts on the way. It wasn't until I dived to around 250'ft that the depth charging started. This was also in Jan 43.
Prior to June 43 when, I think, it was congressman Andrew May who made it public knowledge that US subs could dive deeper than people thought the Japanese would only set their depth charges to around 100ft after this they would mostly set them no deeper than 250ft.
Also all the best boats and crews were attached to the surface fleet.
To sum up on the 1st occasion there is no way I would have been sunk. On the 2nd occasion there's no way I would have escaped!

I'm sorry if this sounds like a rant, it's not really I just want to play as realistic as possible.

[merc4ulfate]

Well if you want realism then I think those mods are just fine. Sometimes the crews aboard the AI's are just good. Sometimes you lost out getting a very good sonar tech on a destroyer. Besides that you do not know how good a thermal layer is or how well it is going to hide you. It is all a guessing game and forces you to develop better evasion tactics.

I used to think things were too easy. It was a piece of cake hiding from Allied shipping escorts until those son of a b*tches develop Hedgehogs and rockets on their ASW aircraft. It forced me to get much better at evasion and listening to my radar operator to dive in aircraft avoidance.

By the way try not to turn your stern to their bows if possible ... your noisier that way ...

I say ... get better at escape and evasion and you and your crew will have a better chance of survival.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Eesocks

Hi, recently returned to SH4 after a long break(almost 5 years)and was wondering if there are any mods to make the enemy AI more realistic. I.ve tried the latest TMO and RFB and both seem to be to have flawed Enemy AI.
For example in Jan 43 after attacking a convoy I went to 400ft passing a thermal layer at 150ft and I still got pinged!-and then sunk! This was using TMO.
On another occasion, this time with RFB, I spent an hour with 3 destroyers running rings around me while I was at depths between 80' and periscope depth and took no damage at all. Eventually after sinking 2 of them and crippling the 3rd I headed for the open sea(I was on photo recon in Manilla bay)picking up 2 more escorts on the way. It wasn't until I dived to around 250'ft that the depth charging started. This was also in Jan 43.
Prior to June 43 when, I think, it was congressman Andrew May who made it public knowledge that US subs could dive deeper than people thought the Japanese would only set their depth charges to around 100ft after this they would mostly set them no deeper than 250ft.
Also all the best boats and crews were attached to the surface fleet.
To sum up on the 1st occasion there is no way I would have been sunk. On the 2nd occasion there's no way I would have escaped!

I'm sorry if this sounds like a rant, it's not really I just want to play as realistic as possible.

Well I think you miss the point of TMO.Stock AI and AI in many other mods is weak.TMO is meant to be tougher to make the player operate in a more realistic manner, thus adding a challenge.Tough AI or not, a thermal layer was not in real life nor is it in TMO a magic blanket.Yes, it causes the sonar signal to be diminished so they cant such a great fix on you but does not hide you magically, especially if they already had a good fix on you before you made it below the thermal layer.TMO's sensors esp in later war enable the sonar beam to go down to 800 feet or so I believe, so you never really get under the beam even in the deepest diving sub. There many other variables as well such as seas state and wind. Rougher seas, more difficult it is for them to get a good fix on you.Deeper does not always mean you will get away.January 1943 the AI in TMO is still pretty easy, guessing you don't have a lot of patrols in with TMO yet, ran into an unusually skilled escort in ideal sonar conditions, or he got lucky with the charges.Perhaps a combo of both.

That is one thing I sought to correct with my depth charge mod for TMO and RSRD.Unfortunately, in SH 4 they have depth charges set unrealistically and cant alter the main thing, which is depth which they will explode. Real life, early war IJN charges could only be set to explode at 50, 100, 200 feet and had a relatively small amount of explosives. Since most early war boats test depth was 250 feet, where they went when evading(if not in shallow waters) and the small amount of explosives, most took some damage but never or rarely the killing blows.Then came the idiot congressman may who revealed japanese charges were not set deep enough nor had enough punch.Then they developed the charges that had large amount of explosives and could be set to detonate at 50, 100, 200, 300, 400, or 500 feet, these charges were sub killers.

Unfortunately, the devs of SH 4 did not make depth charges explode this way, they explode where the AI sets them.The depth precision setting also effects.Basically, if sub is at 100 feet, DD drops 4 charges, depth precision is set to 5 meters(stock), charges will explode at 100 feet and within 5 meters above or below 100 feet.TM0 depth precision is by default set to 7 meters. Now, problem with this is while realistic in sense japanese dropped a pattern on a sub they thought was at 300 feet, they would set some for 300, some for 400, some for 200, that way the sub was bracketed/Problem in game is you can be at 350 feet, they might some charges for 350 feet and some for 340 feet. TMO takes you out with killing blows instead of residual damage building up like in real life.

My depth charge mod makes the early war depth charges have less of a punch and limits their depth precision.The later war charges carry a bigger punch and more depth precision but it stops for the killing blows that cause instant depth unless one gets lucky and lands right on the sub.I am further tweaking the mod and new version will be out.Check out download section.


RFB is a great mod but it runs stock AI and even if use it with RSRD as it was meant to be(since RFB handles boat only, not the campaign and stock campaign if awful) you may see some AI improved but it still lacks. Much hard work has been put in but can only do so much within limitations of the game.

Did you try RSRD with TMO? RSRD does adjust TMO's AI some, so it wont always be as difficult but it is still pretty toug

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Eesocks

Hi, recently returned to SH4 after a long break(almost 5 years)and was wondering if there are any mods to make the enemy AI more realistic. I.ve tried the latest TMO and RFB and both seem to be to have flawed Enemy AI.

You have to keep in mind that many things in the game are hard-coded, and nobody presently working on SH4 has the ability to change them. I also become frustrated by the AI (and other) limitations of the game. But consider, all the mega mods provide us a much, much better game than the stock article. Within the limits of the accessible game files, many aspects have been polished and improved.

[Eesocks]

I understand what you are all saying but having looked at the crew ratings in TMO I noticed they are all rated as 3. I would expect, at least in the early war, for there to be some less able crews around.
I think everyone has their own idea of realism so when I have time I'll change some of them in the early war to a lower level and a bit more random to try and simulate the learning curve the escorts would have gone through.
On the plus side after tracking a Troop convoy on radar for 4 hrs (real time) I fired 6 torps (just to make sure) at a 18k liner doing 18 knts and 2600 range with a slight spread and hit with all 6, so a least I'm shooting straight! This was with 93% realism.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Eesocks

I understand what you are all saying but having looked at the crew ratings in TMO I noticed they are all rated as 3. I would expect, at least in the early war, for there to be some less able crews around.
I think everyone has their own idea of realism so when I have time I'll change some of them in the early war to a lower level and a bit more random to try and simulate the learning curve the escorts would have gone through.
.

In TMO the ASW capabilities of Japanese escorts were pumped up to frankly unrealistic levels. They can find you and depth charge you with pinpoint accuracy without active sonar pinging sometimes. They are extremely aggressive. If you run into an elite crew on a Japanese escort you are dead unless you kill him. The reasoning behind it is that the unrealistic AI behavior results in more cautious player behavior. You are operating in fear for your life. Therefore you do not take stupid chances. You cannot just duck below the thermal layer, turn on the silent running and call it a day. Makes the sim more of a challenge. It probably does do a good job of simulating the overwrought caution that some US skippers practiced in the early months of the war.

In the actual event, Japanese ASW was mediocre to poor to downright non-existent in some cases through the real war. There is speculation that some veteran US skippers like Sam Dealy may have lost their lives and crew because they had become careless, and too contemptuous of lackluster Japanese ASW and methods.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Eesocks

I understand what you are all saying but having looked at the crew ratings in TMO I noticed they are all rated as 3. I would expect, at least in the early war, for there to be some less able crews around.
I think everyone has their own idea of realism so when I have time I'll change some of them in the early war to a lower level and a bit more random to try and simulate the learning curve the escorts would have gone through.
On the plus side after tracking a Troop convoy on radar for 4 hrs (real time) I fired 6 torps (just to make sure) at a 18k liner doing 18 knts and 2600 range with a slight spread and hit with all 6, so a least I'm shooting straight! This was with 93% realism.

TMO may seem a lil tough, but once you learn the game, how to attack and evade, you'll find TMO fairly easy. Like most games, once you learn the AI, it's easier to defeat.

[Capt. Morgan]

Originally Posted by Eesocks

...having looked at the crew ratings in TMO I noticed they are all rated as 3. I would expect, at least in the early war, for there to be some less able crews around....

You have to remember that "early war" for the I.J.N. was 1937. By 1941 they were a highly seasoned force.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Capt. Morgan

You have to remember that "early war" for the I.J.N. was 1937. By 1941 they were a highly seasoned force.

Indeed, the Japanese were highly seasoned. They had practiced hard for years for a decisive battle with the US somewhere in the Central Pacific. Some of the their carrier pilots were already aces in the war in China, and they had gained valuable experience in shore bombardment and naval landings in the same conflict.

But ASW was always a blind spot with them. Escort management within the Imperial Navy was almost an incidental activity in prewar days. Those few officers charged with these matters handled it on a part time or indirect basis. There was no central agency for realistic and comprehensive maritime planning. Just a few months before Pearl Harbor, the only Japanese institution still conducting ASW instruction was the Navy Torpedo School, with a heavy emphasis on attacking with torpedoes, not defending against them. Even there, anti submarine research was the part time domain of one officer.

Like the US naval submariners, the Japanese ASW forces started the war pretty green.

[Admiral Halsey]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Just a few months before Pearl Harbor, the only Japanese institution still conducting ASW instruction was the Navy Torpedo School, with a heavy emphasis on attacking with torpedoes, not defending against them. Even there.

They thought they could attack a sub that would almost certainly be underwater with torpedoes? If they had the technology of today sure but in the 40's?

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Eesocks

I understand what you are all saying but having looked at the crew ratings in TMO I noticed they are all rated as 3. I would expect, at least in the early war, for there to be some less able crews around.
I think everyone has their own idea of realism so when I have time I'll change some of them in the early war to a lower level and a bit more random to try and simulate the learning curve the escorts would have gone through.
On the plus side after tracking a Troop convoy on radar for 4 hrs (real time) I fired 6 torps (just to make sure) at a 18k liner doing 18 knts and 2600 range with a slight spread and hit with all 6, so a least I'm shooting straight! This was with 93% realism.

Add on Run Silent Run Deep mod with TMO.Escorts are easier in early war(their early war ASW was pitiful) and improves over time.RSRD is a campaign mod, adds historical traffic, among many things.Keeps the toughness of TMO escorts but does mellow them out a little.Still have to watch yourself esp from late 1943 on but definitely gives most realistic sim.They are not all super escorts but still have to play smart.Also, try the SH 4 AI fix from the downloads section.This stops them from always using active sonar.They only go active when the detect you, instead of always being active(even if you dont hear the ping). This helps and adds more realism yet they are tough, esp once you are detected.

Lowering their skill to competent(2) will affect your gameplay, they will be a bit too easy.