Boeing 787 grounded

Skybird · 01-16-13, 05:48 PM

Japan has grounded all Dreamliners after a battery fire. It is not the first serious incident with Boeing new dream which now threatens to become an expensive nigthmare for Boeing. On Professional Pilots rumour Network, and internet platform for professional pilots, many pros express doubts on the concept of the new airplane.

The new Boeing is heavily depending on use of lithium ion batteries, far more than other airplanes since it has replaced many hydraulic and mechanical systems with electrical ones. Some pilots expressed concerns over putting so many of these batteries, which are known to explode and go up in flames occasionally in laptops, cellphones and pedelecs as well, into an airframe "largly made of plastic". The general design of these batteries and their isolation is being doubted, too.

Also, dissatisfaction with Boeings' crisis management is being voiced, too, saying that they made no progress, whereas Airbus with intial problems with its A380 step by step adressed them and cleaned them up. Sinc ethe serial production has been driven up by Boeing recently, the hiuger production activity also is assumed to have something to do with insufficient quality of components, some pilots assume.

In the worst scenario, the electrical design of the Dreamliner is insufficient and the batteries cannot be used. In this case, Boeing practically would need to replace the e-system and design a new Dreamliner around the replacement system.

In the imminent past, several Dreamliners ran into problems, from cracks in the cockpit windows and failing generators over failures in the braking system and engine problems to fires in the freight compartment and melting battery and cable isolations. Many of these incidents were not taken note of by a wide public, but some of them led to emergency landings by Dreamliners.

Also noteworthy is that due to the heavy dependency on electrical power, these new batteries represent a new technological design with specifications for which no previous certification standards existed. The negotations between Boeing and the American authorities were unusually long over these items alone, and in principle the batteries are not properly certified by the authority on grounds on any proven standards.

Some pilots get quoted with making their position clear: "If it is Boeing, I am not going."

I wonder if "new materials" maybe get overestimated in the industry, and their longevity and robustness gets overestimated. I think of the unforseen microcracks building in the wings and airframe of the A380, but Boeings as well.
American and Japanese authorities are running investigations. I think the Poles are about to do that as well. So far, some 40 787s are in service wordwide.

Skybird · 01-16-13, 07:30 PM

Just in: the US now have grounded all B787s, too.

Oberon · 01-16-13, 07:40 PM

Update: The US has also grounded their 787 fleet over the battery failure risk.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21054089

It's not good publicity for Boeing, that much is certain, and this battery design could be the undoing of the 787. I think the major selling point of the 787 was its low fuel consumption rate and light rate materials used, which in this world of high oil prices is a boon for the smaller air companies looking to skim a little extra profits from their flights. Airbus went in a different direction with the A380 by offering to put more fee paying passengers into the same journey.
However, it's certainly having a bad start, Boeing has a very loyal customer base, so I can't see it suffering unduly from this, and they still have the 767 and 777 designs which are tried and tested, but in a world where Airbus is looking to seize the initiative in aircraft design, this is not a good advertisement. Still, unless it's the entire electrical system design that's at fault then this is something that can be rectified, the A380 wasn't perfect at launch either, just ask Quantas.

Personally though, I think that the future of airline technology may come from Japan, or more specifically, their space agency, JAXA which has some interesting super and hypersonic design proposals that it hopes to get into action by the middle of the century. Time will tell, who knows, perhaps by then I'll have actually flown in something that is not on a computer screen. Although God help us all if I'm the one flying it!

EDIT: Sniped by a whole ten minutes, that's what I get for rambling and stopping to check the specs of the A380 and 787!

Takeda Shingen · 01-16-13, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

EDIT: Sniped by a whole ten minutes, that's what I get for rambling and stopping to check the specs of the A380 and 787!

Yes, but you actually provided a link.

BossMark · 01-17-13, 02:37 AM

Better to be safe than sorry.

U570 · 01-17-13, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Quantas.

I can tell you're not Australian

Herr-Berbunch · 01-17-13, 03:07 AM

I thought I read the other day they'd been grounded over all the previous emergency landings et al, maybe that was individual airlines.

Cybermat47 · 01-17-13, 03:10 AM

Oberon, the A380 didn't cause Qantas to fail, Qantas caused Qantas to fail

Tchocky · 01-17-13, 04:39 AM

Grounded in Europe now also - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21054089

This is very bad news for Boeing. The plane is still very much in demand, I don't think we'll see orders cancelled over this. But a string of entry-into-service problems is really just the icing on the cake of a troubled design and manufacturing process.

A lot of the incidents over the last couple of weeks are totally routine (brakes, fuel leak) and would never have made the non-industry news had they not happened to a 787, but there are also some points of concern.

As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, it's time to let the engineers get to work and get them flying again!

01-16-13, 05:48 PM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Boeing 787 grounded Japan has grounded all Dreamliners after a battery fire. It is not the first serious incident with Boeing new dream which now threatens to become an expensive nigthmare for Boeing. On Professional Pilots rumour Network, and internet platform for professional pilots, many pros express doubts on the concept of the new airplane. The new Boeing is heavily depending on use of lithium ion batteries, far more than other airplanes since it has replaced many hydraulic and mechanical systems with electrical ones. Some pilots expressed concerns over putting so many of these batteries, which are known to explode and go up in flames occasionally in laptops, cellphones and pedelecs as well, into an airframe "largly made of plastic". The general design of these batteries and their isolation is being doubted, too. Also, dissatisfaction with Boeings' crisis management is being voiced, too, saying that they made no progress, whereas Airbus with intial problems with its A380 step by step adressed them and cleaned them up. Sinc ethe serial production has been driven up by Boeing recently, the hiuger production activity also is assumed to have something to do with insufficient quality of components, some pilots assume. In the worst scenario, the electrical design of the Dreamliner is insufficient and the batteries cannot be used. In this case, Boeing practically would need to replace the e-system and design a new Dreamliner around the replacement system. In the imminent past, several Dreamliners ran into problems, from cracks in the cockpit windows and failing generators over failures in the braking system and engine problems to fires in the freight compartment and melting battery and cable isolations. Many of these incidents were not taken note of by a wide public, but some of them led to emergency landings by Dreamliners. Also noteworthy is that due to the heavy dependency on electrical power, these new batteries represent a new technological design with specifications for which no previous certification standards existed. The negotations between Boeing and the American authorities were unusually long over these items alone, and in principle the batteries are not properly certified by the authority on grounds on any proven standards. Some pilots get quoted with making their position clear: "If it is Boeing, I am not going." I wonder if "new materials" maybe get overestimated in the industry, and their longevity and robustness gets overestimated. I think of the unforseen microcracks building in the wings and airframe of the A380, but Boeings as well. American and Japanese authorities are running investigations. I think the Poles are about to do that as well. So far, some 40 787s are in service wordwide. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-16-13, 07:30 PM	#2
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Just in: the US now have grounded all B787s, too. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-17-13, 02:37 AM	#5
BossMark Fleet Admiral Join Date: May 2011 Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire Posts: 15,272 Downloads: 278 Uploads: 0	Better to be safe than sorry. __________________ Never trust the Tories look what Thatcher and Major did in the 80s and 90s and look what the wicked witch May is doing now doing now

01-17-13, 03:07 AM	#7
Herr-Berbunch Kaiser Bill's batman Join Date: May 2010 Location: AN72 Posts: 13,203 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	I thought I read the other day they'd been grounded over all the previous emergency landings et al, maybe that was individual airlines. __________________

01-17-13, 03:10 AM	#8
Cybermat47 Willing Webfooted Beast Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Australia Posts: 5,408 Downloads: 300 Uploads: 23	Oberon, the A380 didn't cause Qantas to fail, Qantas caused Qantas to fail __________________ Historical TWoS Gameplay Guide: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2572620 Historical FotRSU Gameplay Guide: https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho....php?p=2713394

01-16-13, 07:40 PM	#3
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Update: The US has also grounded their 787 fleet over the battery failure risk. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21054089 It's not good publicity for Boeing, that much is certain, and this battery design could be the undoing of the 787. I think the major selling point of the 787 was its low fuel consumption rate and light rate materials used, which in this world of high oil prices is a boon for the smaller air companies looking to skim a little extra profits from their flights. Airbus went in a different direction with the A380 by offering to put more fee paying passengers into the same journey. However, it's certainly having a bad start, Boeing has a very loyal customer base, so I can't see it suffering unduly from this, and they still have the 767 and 777 designs which are tried and tested, but in a world where Airbus is looking to seize the initiative in aircraft design, this is not a good advertisement. Still, unless it's the entire electrical system design that's at fault then this is something that can be rectified, the A380 wasn't perfect at launch either, just ask Quantas. Personally though, I think that the future of airline technology may come from Japan, or more specifically, their space agency, JAXA which has some interesting super and hypersonic design proposals that it hopes to get into action by the middle of the century. Time will tell, who knows, perhaps by then I'll have actually flown in something that is not on a computer screen. Although God help us all if I'm the one flying it! EDIT: Sniped by a whole ten minutes, that's what I get for rambling and stopping to check the specs of the A380 and 787!

01-17-13, 04:39 AM	#9
Tchocky Navy Seal Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,874 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Grounded in Europe now also - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21054089 This is very bad news for Boeing. The plane is still very much in demand, I don't think we'll see orders cancelled over this. But a string of entry-into-service problems is really just the icing on the cake of a troubled design and manufacturing process. A lot of the incidents over the last couple of weeks are totally routine (brakes, fuel leak) and would never have made the non-industry news had they not happened to a 787, but there are also some points of concern. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, it's time to let the engineers get to work and get them flying again! __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]