Did Japanese midget submarines sink the Arizona?

Cybermat47 · 12-11-12, 02:55 AM

There's a program on SBS at 8:30 tonight. The description is as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TV Guide

The discovery of a group of Japanes mini-subs in Pearl Harbour has raised questions about the sinking of the USS Arizona. Could one of the subs have fired a torpedo at the Arizona?

Karle94 · 12-11-12, 04:00 AM

Judging by the results from the other battleships I highly doubt a torpedo caused the magzine detonation. No other battleship that was torpedoed exploded. And one torpedo would not have been able to sink her. One battleship took about 6-7 torpedoes before slowly sinking.

Red October1984 · 12-11-12, 07:27 AM

Yeaaaaa....no it was not midget subs.

TLAM Strike · 12-11-12, 07:47 AM

I think TV Guide is posting an inaccurate description of the show if it its the show I'm thinking of. In it they suggest the Midget submarine helped to sink the Oklahoma not the Arizona.

August · 12-11-12, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

I think TV Guide is posting an inaccurate description of the show if it its the show I'm thinking of. In it they suggest the Midget submarine helped to sink the Oklahoma not the Arizona.

Yeah wasn't the Arizona protected from torpedo attack by that tender parked alongside?

12-11-12, 08:32 AM

If it was in TV, it must be true...

But no, I highly doubt that. Not even with a "lucky shot", I mean how would this even work? A single torpedo at this type of BB?
Nah... not in my universe...

Jimbuna · 12-11-12, 08:45 AM

Highly unlikely imho

12-11-12, 08:51 AM

That reminds me... what did they actually find in the Churchill river!? They suspected it a type 9 u-boat and anyone here was laughing their butts off because of that... I never heard about it again, I assume they went silent after figuring they found an old trawler or something

Anyone have the latest gossip?

(Oh and sorry for hi-jacking)

Bilge_Rat · 12-11-12, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Yeah wasn't the Arizona protected from torpedo attack by that tender parked alongside?

U.S.S. Vestal, but she was a lot shorter than the Arizona, allowing torpedoes to hit the BBs bow or stern.

some have suggested that this and similar photos shows the submarine tracks from the midget sub hitting West Virginia which is already listing to port, although I think that is a stretch myself. They are most likely air dropped torpedoes.

Arizona and Vestal are moored just behind West Virginia and Tennessee.

That photo was taken by a Japanese aircraft, more details here:

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/e...hbr/ph-bba.htm

CaptainHaplo · 12-11-12, 12:47 PM

The History Channel did a major show on this at one time - at least on the mini-subs. There is reason to believe 1 got in and in fact did get a shot off. However, there is no way to tell if it hit or what damage it may have done.

With that said - the Arizona is a known entity. Video footage actually captured not just the final explosion, but the series of events immediately prior. The Arizona blew because of a bomb penetration right next to a turret. "Ready" ammunition went off sympathetically (some theorize that the main forward magazine was not secured and that some powder was in fact stored outside unsecured doors) - causing a chain of events that resulted in the magazine blowing.

Extensive investigation showed that the hull of Arizona blew outward - meaning the explosion originated interally - not fror a torp hit.

vienna · 12-11-12, 01:35 PM

The PBS program "Nova" did a rather detailed presentation on just this subject a while back:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/militar...rl-harbor.html

The site offers the opportunity to view the program and has a transcript of the presentation...

<O>

Sailor Steve · 12-11-12, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

The Arizona blew because of a bomb penetration right next to a turret. "Ready" ammunition went off sympathetically (some theorize that the main forward magazine was not secured and that some powder was in fact stored outside unsecured doors) - causing a chain of events that resulted in the magazine blowing.

Extensive investigation showed that the hull of Arizona blew outward - meaning the explosion originated interally - not fror a torp hit.

The "bombs" dropped on the battleships were modified 41cm (16.1") armor-piercing shells, dropped by level bombers from high altitude by level bombers. As far as I know that was the only one that actually hit anything. I was unaware of the extra powder storage and had assumed that the "bomb" penetrated all the way to the main magazine, which was certainly possible with that shell.
Here is a very good discussion on the subject.
http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewt...hp?f=36&t=1839

Note that the final post really is the final word on the subject. Nathun Okun is widely recognized as the world's leading expert on naval armor and the shells designed to defeat it.

Cybermat47 · 01-18-13, 05:18 PM

Blimey. Took me a long time to watch it

Anyway, it turns out that midget sub No.5 managed to get into Pearl Harbour and fired it's torpedoes at either the Arizona or the Oklahoma and West Virginia. One of its torpedoes was a dud, and was recovered by the US navy not long after (If it discharged both torpedoes at the Arizona, both were duds or one missed). The submarine sent out a signal (it attacked on the surface) to it's mother sub. The signal, Kira, is believed to be a misspelling of Tora, due to the stress of operating a midget sub. The sub quickly escaped to west loch, were it's crew detonated scuttling charges, blowing the sub in two and killing themselves. It remained there until the west loch disaster of 1943, when it was gathered with the sunken US LCTs, cut into three, and dumped outside the harbour.

Here's more information on the west loch disaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Loch_disaster

Soon I'll post a photo of what may be midget sub No.5 firing at battleship row, unwittingly taken by a Japanese airman.

Popeye the Salior · 08-11-13, 11:41 AM

Nope she took a 800 kilogram bomb hit to her fore magazine the bomb glanced off turret number two then punched through the belt armor and wound up in that magazine where is exploded killing 1,777 Americans.

Sailor Steve · 08-11-13, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeye the Salior

then punched through the belt armor

That would be the deck armor. If it went through the belt armor it would have exited the hull and exploded in the water.

12-11-12, 04:00 AM	#2
Karle94 The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Norseland Posts: 1,355 Downloads: 253 Uploads: 0	Judging by the results from the other battleships I highly doubt a torpedo caused the magzine detonation. No other battleship that was torpedoed exploded. And one torpedo would not have been able to sink her. One battleship took about 6-7 torpedoes before slowly sinking. __________________ Find my mods here: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/lzgciodldp58p/SH4_Mods My SH4 blog here: http://karle94.blogspot.com/

12-11-12, 07:27 AM	#3
Red October1984 Airplane Nerd Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 6,243 Downloads: 115 Uploads: 0	Yeaaaaa....no it was not midget subs. __________________

12-11-12, 07:47 AM	#4
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	I think TV Guide is posting an inaccurate description of the show if it its the show I'm thinking of. In it they suggest the Midget submarine helped to sink the Oklahoma not the Arizona. __________________

12-11-12, 08:45 AM	#7
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,759 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Highly unlikely imho __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

12-11-12, 12:47 PM	#10
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	The History Channel did a major show on this at one time - at least on the mini-subs. There is reason to believe 1 got in and in fact did get a shot off. However, there is no way to tell if it hit or what damage it may have done. With that said - the Arizona is a known entity. Video footage actually captured not just the final explosion, but the series of events immediately prior. The Arizona blew because of a bomb penetration right next to a turret. "Ready" ammunition went off sympathetically (some theorize that the main forward magazine was not secured and that some powder was in fact stored outside unsecured doors) - causing a chain of events that resulted in the magazine blowing. Extensive investigation showed that the hull of Arizona blew outward - meaning the explosion originated interally - not fror a torp hit. __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

12-11-12, 08:32 AM	#6
Nippelspanner Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	If it was in TV, it must be true... But no, I highly doubt that. Not even with a "lucky shot", I mean how would this even work? A single torpedo at this type of BB? Nah... not in my universe...

12-11-12, 08:51 AM	#8
Nippelspanner Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	That reminds me... what did they actually find in the Churchill river!? They suspected it a type 9 u-boat and anyone here was laughing their butts off because of that... I never heard about it again, I assume they went silent after figuring they found an old trawler or something Anyone have the latest gossip? (Oh and sorry for hi-jacking)

12-11-12, 01:35 PM	#11
vienna Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Anywhere but the here & now... Posts: 7,719 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	The PBS program "Nova" did a rather detailed presentation on just this subject a while back: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/militar...rl-harbor.html The site offers the opportunity to view the program and has a transcript of the presentation... <O> __________________ __________________________________________________ __

01-18-13, 05:18 PM	#13
Cybermat47 Willing Webfooted Beast Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Australia Posts: 5,408 Downloads: 300 Uploads: 23	Blimey. Took me a long time to watch it Anyway, it turns out that midget sub No.5 managed to get into Pearl Harbour and fired it's torpedoes at either the Arizona or the Oklahoma and West Virginia. One of its torpedoes was a dud, and was recovered by the US navy not long after (If it discharged both torpedoes at the Arizona, both were duds or one missed). The submarine sent out a signal (it attacked on the surface) to it's mother sub. The signal, Kira, is believed to be a misspelling of Tora, due to the stress of operating a midget sub. The sub quickly escaped to west loch, were it's crew detonated scuttling charges, blowing the sub in two and killing themselves. It remained there until the west loch disaster of 1943, when it was gathered with the sunken US LCTs, cut into three, and dumped outside the harbour. Here's more information on the west loch disaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Loch_disaster Soon I'll post a photo of what may be midget sub No.5 firing at battleship row, unwittingly taken by a Japanese airman. __________________ Historical TWoS Gameplay Guide: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2572620 Historical FotRSU Gameplay Guide: https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho....php?p=2713394 Last edited by Cybermat47; 01-18-13 at 09:37 PM.

08-11-13, 11:41 AM	#14
Popeye the Salior Sailor man Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Wish I was at sea commanding a sailboat. Posts: 48 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 0	Nope she took a 800 kilogram bomb hit to her fore magazine the bomb glanced off turret number two then punched through the belt armor and wound up in that magazine where is exploded killing 1,777 Americans. __________________ Always check your 180 and give them hell!!