Opinion! An Imperfect God

[Gerald]

Is God perfect? You often hear philosophers describe “theism” as the belief in a perfect being — a being whose attributes are said to include being all-powerful, all-knowing, immutable, perfectly good, perfectly simple, and necessarily existent (among others). And today, something like this view is common among lay people as well.

There are two famous problems with this view of God. The first is that it appears to be impossible to make it coherent. For example, it seems unlikely that God can be both perfectly powerful and perfectly good if the world is filled (as it obviously is) with instances of terrible injustice. Similarly, it’s hard to see how God can wield his infinite power to instigate alteration and change in all things if he is flat-out immutable. And there are more such contradictions where these came from.

The second problem is that while this “theist” view of God is supposed to be a description of the God of the Bible, it’s hard to find any evidence that the prophets and scholars who wrote the Hebrew Bible (or “Old Testament”) thought of God in this way at all. The God of Hebrew Scripture is not depicted as immutable, but repeatedly changes his mind about things (for example, he regrets having made man). He is not all-knowing, since he’s repeatedly surprised by things (like the Israelites abandoning him for a statue of a cow). He is not perfectly powerful either, in that he famously cannot control Israel and get its people to do what he wants. And so on.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...me&ref=general



Note: November 25, 2012

[Cybermat47]

Well, we can't trust whoever wrote the Bible, seeing as it was them, not God, who said 'Gays will burn in hell'.

[August]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Well, we can't trust whoever wrote the Bible, seeing as it was them, not God, who said 'Gays will burn in hell'.

dig it.

[Armistead]

If God exist, I'm not sure how anyone can claim they know who he is. The world is filled with beliefs in God, each is right, the others wrong. Worse, even if you're sincere in your beliefs, if you're wrong, it's off to eternal torture. Admit it or not, most of us accept and follow the beliefs of the culture we're born into. Hard for me to accept a God that would eternally damn every sincere Muslim, Hindu, etc..

Seems to me man designs God to fit his cultural experience.

The bible is a hard way to know God. It you study how it was made, you know what you're reading has 1000's of additions, deletions, etc. We have no original scripts, just 1000's of copies of copies, each being changed. We know several of the NT books were not written by the said author. It's clear man changed it so much to create doctrine to fit the culture of that period for 100's of years.

Still, I like to remain humble. I follow God by my heart. more than I do words written by others. I refuse to live and judge others by a cultural code written by man to control others. Most belief systems have caused so much evil, I find it hard to see God in any of them. If God is really the way most religions portray him, I wouldn't want anything to do with him.

[GoldenRivet]

i consider myself Christian by my upbringing. I'll put that up front.

I believe there are signs of intelligent design all over the world and even in the universe.

I also believe every religion known to man has it figured more or less wrong.

Where religion loses me is in the 2 concepts that most all religions subscribe to that is:

1. our people have been chosen over your people for God's favoritism

2. if you dont become one of our people and do as our camp says you will suffer _______ (insert bad thing for eternity after you die)

lets face it, there are some pretty big offenders here. Christianity and Islam are way up at the tippy top of the list, I'll certainly be the first to admit it.

I think of God as the parent of mankind, God loves us, wants us to be happy and successful and achieve greatness just like a parent would. But the thing about parents is even though they love their children, and even though they want all this good stuff for their children, kids grow up to be adults. and they need the parent less and less - for guidance, advice, a shoulder to cry on whatever - with each passing year. I'll always love my parents, I'll always respect the lessons i have learned from them... but, as an adult, i am weened from them and have developed into my own man.

much like an individual, mankind has a fate, and in order to realize that destiny, mankind has to outgrow its obsessions with religion.

We have had a unique journey as a race of beings. Early rumblings of thunder and day and night, the stars in the sky, clouds, rain... we had no way of understanding these things in our infancy and we created explanations of our own that made sense to us.

Only later in our fledgling years did we discover the angry monster throwing down streaks of fire in the sky is really just charged particles releasing large amounts of static electricity.

The great mystery in life will always be, what comes afterwards. Mankind has struggled with death since the very first of our loved ones ceased to be.

Which religion is correct?

What really happens when we die?

Are the muslims right? or the Christians? How about the Budists? the athiests?

Is heaven real? or is this life just preparing our souls for transcendence into another plane of existence that nobody has even considered theorizing about yet?

men have died and discovered the answers to these questions

trouble is, they arent talking.



i have grown to enjoy this quote

"This is my simple religion, there is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is the temple, the philosophy is kindness."

i think any one true God wouldnt want all the grandiose nonsense and fanfare... God would just want mankind to love one another and be kind. and anytime you do the right thing... anytime you hold the door for someone and smile to brighten the day of another, you practice that religion.

[Cybermat47]

@vendor

You're absolutely right!

Let's make it a religion!

Anybody wanna join The Church of Common Sense, and become a Nice Person?

[Catfish]

Also, there was not one god according even to the Thora, only one of the gods who made the deal with his chosen folks that they should only pray to HIM.
And, not to forget, God had a wife. This has just been conveniently forgotten, by the patriarch religious leaders and dumbnuts (=same).

No this is no joke, i am just dumbfounded again and again by especially christian fanatics who obviously never even read the bible lol.
It is certainly easier to have other people interprete it for you, and then tell you how you have to behave, to evade beheading by other nice humans, believing in the same god with another name.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

@vendor

You're absolutely right!

Let's make it a religion!

Anybody wanna join The Church of Common Sense, and become a Nice Person?

Amen.

[August]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

@vendor

You're absolutely right!

Let's make it a religion!

Anybody wanna join The Church of Common Sense, and become a Nice Person?

If you make Common Sense a religion then wouldn't that mean government would no longer be able to display what little of it they have left?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

i consider myself Christian by my upbringing. I'll put that up front.

I'm just the opposite. I was brought up as a nothing, not believing one way or another. Then I was a Christian - or at least I believed so. There's always that nagging little "If you don't believe now, how can you be sure that your 'belief' was ever real?"

I believe there are signs of intelligent design all over the world and even in the universe.

I don't see any, and I have to wonder if "signs" are only seen by those who want to see them...or if they're not seen by those who don't want to seen them.

As for your dissertation on the problem with religions, without quoting it I'll just say that I agree.

I think of God as the parent of mankind, God loves us, wants us to be happy and successful and achieve greatness just like a parent would.

I used to feel that way, but of course it's hard to think of God that way when you're not sure there even is one.

much like an individual, mankind has a fate, and in order to realize that destiny, mankind has to outgrow its obsessions with religion.

I'm not sure that's true. I wonder sometimes if mankind spends his days looking for a reason, and the horrible truth is that there is no reason, everything just is.

The great mystery in life will always be, what comes afterwards. Mankind has struggled with death since the very first of our loved ones ceased to be.

And never found an answer; at least not one he could prove.

Which religion is correct?

Where moral and life teachings are concerned? Most of them. Where God is concerned? Who knows?

What really happens when we die?

All I can say for certain is that I'm in no hurry to find out.

Are the muslims right? or the Christians? How about the Budists? the athiests?

Questions I ask every time the subject comes up. Of course none of them can prove they're right, but they all enjoy showing where the others are wrong.

Is heaven real? or is this life just preparing our souls for transcendence into another plane of existence that nobody has even considered theorizing about yet?

Or is this life all there is, and there is no "soul" and no "preparing"?

men have died and discovered the answers to these questions

Or not, as the case may be.

trouble is, they arent talking.

Isn't that always the trouble?

i think any one true God wouldnt want all the grandiose nonsense and fanfare... God would just want mankind to love one another and be kind. and anytime you do the right thing... anytime you hold the door for someone and smile to brighten the day of another, you practice that religion.

Many years ago there was a semi-humorous newspaper comic strip called 'Rick O'Shay', about an Old-West marshall. All the characters had spoof names. His girlfriend was a saloon-girl named Miss Gaye Abandon. Her nephew, who lived with her, was called Quyat Burp. His best friend was a gunslinger named Hipshot Percussion. Every year Stan Lynde, the strip's creator, did a variation on the same theme. As a boy I always loved those strips, and though off-topic I think they speak to the same themes you wrote about here.







Sorry to pick apart your post that way, especially when I know you were only philosophizing and theorizing, honestly thinking out loud as it were. You just said so much that I agree with that I had to do a little philosophizing of my own.

[Gerald]

Very eloquently Steve ... many questions and concerns were properly by past now,

[u crank]

The Bible is a collection of writings about God. It was written about two to four thousand years ago by people who had no knowledge of science and knew little about what was going on in other parts of the world. I think our expectations about the accuracy and even the intent are a little high. If you believe in God and think that this book is an infallible and final picture of who God is you are required to set aside much of what we have learned about science, history and human philosophy. I can't do that.

I believe in a Creator and would call myself a Christian. I have been one for almost thirty years. I would be the first to admit that my views have changed a lot. Not about God, but about those who claim to speak for Him.

Who speaks for God?

Not me.

Originally Posted by Armistead

Still, I like to remain humble. I follow God by my heart. more than I do words written by others. I refuse to live and judge others by a cultural code written by man to control others. Most belief systems have caused so much evil, I find it hard to see God in any of them. If God is really the way most religions portray him, I wouldn't want anything to do with him.

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

i consider myself Christian by my upbringing. I'll put that up front.

I believe there are signs of intelligent design all over the world and even in the universe.

i think any one true God wouldnt want all the grandiose nonsense and fanfare... God would just want mankind to love one another and be kind. and anytime you do the right thing... anytime you hold the door for someone and smile to brighten the day of another, you practice that religion.

These two quotes to me represent a far more reasonable view of God than the strict line of the so called 'fundamentalists' and 'religious hard-liners' who condemn anyone who does not agree with them. As I get older I have come to believe that this is the true path. Kindness and humility.

Thanks for holding that door GR.

[Skybird]

Some pralinés from my doc-file with most favorite quotes:

Out of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best moral code, the best cathedral, the best stained glass, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one. - Richard Dawkins

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca

If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in a quite different world. - Christopher Hitchens.

Because most religions offer no valid mechanism by which their core beliefs can be tested and revised, each new generation of believers is condemned to inherit the superstitions and tribal hatreds of its predecessors. - Sam Harris

A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes. - James Feibleman