Periscope ranging seems ridiculous....

[Rostbef]

I'm currently playing:
TMO 2.1
RSRDC 5xx patch 1

I came upon a convoy with a Hiryu type carrier. Couldn't have been a sweeter approach too. Night, decent vis, slight chop on the water. I took a bazillion ranges and charted them. They all looked halfway decent but I could never get a decent speed solution. It varied anywhere from 6 to 10 knots. These were all manual calculations, I never use the button to find it. I took 4 shots. Nevermind that 3 prematurely detonated (not the point of this thread). I missed way behind so he was either much faster or further away than I had ranged him. So I cheated and reloaded. Further ranges showed him almost 700 yards closer. I'm pretty confused. SH 3 always seemed to be much better at periscope ranging. Any mods that work with TMO and RSRDC to fix this?

[magic452]

Welcome to the boat mate.

You could try Ship Centered Accuracy Fix (SCAF) mod By CapnScurvy.
Here
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=126016

You use things other than the Mast high to get range, Funnels, decks,etc.
Some think it is cheating but I like it as my eyes aren't so good.

Magic

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Rostbef

I'm currently playing:
TMO 2.1
RSRDC 5xx patch 1

I came upon a convoy with a Hiryu type carrier. Couldn't have been a sweeter approach too. Night, decent vis, slight chop on the water. I took a bazillion ranges and charted them. They all looked halfway decent but I could never get a decent speed solution. It varied anywhere from 6 to 10 knots. These were all manual calculations, I never use the button to find it. I took 4 shots. Nevermind that 3 prematurely detonated (not the point of this thread). I missed way behind so he was either much faster or further away than I had ranged him. So I cheated and reloaded. Further ranges showed him almost 700 yards closer. I'm pretty confused. SH 3 always seemed to be much better at periscope ranging. Any mods that work with TMO and RSRDC to fix this?

Welcome aboard.

What you experienced was probably the most realistic thing about SH4. Ranging was difficult and was inaccurate until the advent of radar (even then there were errors). Captains seldom knew the height of the ship and the view from the periscope was not as clear as is sometimes depicted in the video game.

Speed estimation was, in many cases, solely based on the experience of the captain. I would say if you were estimating the speed between 6 and 10 knots you are doing great!

You did not mention what range you were shooting at, but since you mentioned that in your reload the ranges were 700 yards closer, it sounds like you were shooting from far away.

Personally, I find the "inaccuracies" of SH4 to add to the realism and forces me to get up close to the point where the errors have little impact (pun intended) on my firing solution. But everyone plays the game the way they want to. I hope you can find a nice mod that helps you shoot more accurately.

Welcome aboard and Be Agressive. oops, wrong game. Find em and Sink em.

[Armistead]

You can always check your solution on the attack map.

[Rostbef]

Thanks for the replies. I was about 2k yards from the carrier and less than that from his escort who was zigging all over the place. That was about as close as I dared to get. I have sort of a related question. since I've loaded RSRDC, the recognition manual has some red marks for some ships over the funnels and such. I'm guessing these are the measuring points for the published mast heights. Am I wrong?

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Rostbef

I'm guessing these are the measuring points for the published mast heights. Am I wrong?

You are not wrong, you are right.

[I'm goin' down]

Use the Optical Training Correction by Capn Scurvy. It work with stock game and with RSRDC, You can fix up the stock game with Webster's GFO supermod.

I know. Your welcome.

[Armistead]

I use max optics and scaf, really too much info, but I feel it helps balance the turbo stops and starts of the ships. Within 3000 yards it works great, but with TMO's darker horizon lil harder. If you have visuals or radar it's easy to get course using your tools. After you click the stad it will give you range and course, I know my reading is good when the stad course matches the course I determined with my tools.

[commandosolo2009]

Originally Posted by Rostbef

I'm currently playing:
TMO 2.1
RSRDC 5xx patch 1

I came upon a convoy with a Hiryu type carrier. Couldn't have been a sweeter approach too. Night, decent vis, slight chop on the water. I took a bazillion ranges and charted them. They all looked halfway decent but I could never get a decent speed solution. It varied anywhere from 6 to 10 knots. These were all manual calculations, I never use the button to find it. I took 4 shots. Nevermind that 3 prematurely detonated (not the point of this thread). I missed way behind so he was either much faster or further away than I had ranged him. So I cheated and reloaded. Further ranges showed him almost 700 yards closer. I'm pretty confused. SH 3 always seemed to be much better at periscope ranging. Any mods that work with TMO and RSRDC to fix this?

If you aim for realism, you should be happy with the stadimeter error. Real life skippers had the ordeal of measuring the mast of the sighted ship, and the Length/Height Ratio which helped them call the AOB.

Another thing, is that the TDC feature is nice to keep on as soon as you start a plot. At least you have a projected path, which you may update conveniently. Alas, the TDC wont give you a precise ranging, but if the difference between expected stadimeter range and TDC generated range is off by 100 meters, the solution is valid.

For example you start plotting when the target is 20 kms away. 2 sound bearings and pings get you an estimate course and speed and a first-hand AOB. these you plug-in with a compensation of AOB (say at 19.7 km a ping ranged got him at AOB 13 starboard, so you adjust AOB to 14 starboard and range of 19.5 at the next bearing then you turn on the PK).

Works well if you track with sonar. Radar can be keyed to show range/bearing consistency and correct if necessary (mostly if the target is in deep waters and not facing a puddle or landmass ahead, the solution stays same with minor adjustments at pre-firing point).

By 'keying' the radar, I mean focus on a bearing ahead of the target an most importantly, recognizable on the PPI screen (30 degree bearing increments themselves,not the slices of pizza in-between) and when the target crosses that bearing, you check the A-scope for range and compare it to the TDC generated range, while also checking the generated bearing versus return bearing

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by Rostbef

I'm currently playing:
TMO 2.1
RSRDC 5xx patch 1

I came upon a convoy with a Hiryu type carrier. Couldn't have been a sweeter approach too. Night, decent vis, slight chop on the water. I took a bazillion ranges and charted them. They all looked halfway decent but I could never get a decent speed solution. It varied anywhere from 6 to 10 knots. These were all manual calculations, I never use the button to find it. I took 4 shots. Nevermind that 3 prematurely detonated (not the point of this thread). I missed way behind so he was either much faster or further away than I had ranged him. So I cheated and reloaded. Further ranges showed him almost 700 yards closer. I'm pretty confused. SH 3 always seemed to be much better at periscope ranging. Any mods that work with TMO and RSRDC to fix this?

Did you take a speed average over multiple plots? 3 minute plots are too coarse to rely on if you shoot at anything over point blank range.

It is also important how far away those plots were when you took them. At 10 nm distance 1 degree of bearing is 350 yards wide. The target could have been anywhere in that 350 yards. There goes your 100 yard=1 knot rule flying out of the window.

[Daniel Prates]

Still the error is too big, something like 40% (700 yards out of 2000).

Are you sure you are using the stadimeter correctly? You have to find the tallest mast, and that is not always easy since sometimes there are flags and such things that confuse your data aquisition and makes you measure the hightes mast incorrectly - as it is the case with the Hyriu. Always chech the profile on the recognition manual and see if the flag is or isn't a part of the top mast.

Also, always zoom your scope to get the hightest definition you can.

It seems to me that the only explanation to this big distance errors is that you are not locking the stadimeter in the right position when you calculate distance.

[PortsmouthProwler]

Originally Posted by Pisces

Did you take a speed average over multiple plots? 3 minute plots are too coarse to rely on if you shoot at anything over point blank range.

It is also important how far away those plots were when you took them. At 10 nm distance 1 degree of bearing is 350 yards wide. The target could have been anywhere in that 350 yards. There goes your 100 yard=1 knot rule flying out of the window.

???

100 yards per minute (I assume that is meant) times 60 minutes is 6,000 yards in an hour which is very close to 3 nautical miles an hour, i. e., 3 knots. Unless you meant three minutes...

Three minute plots? Why? More data? The futz factor in the range alone introduces enough error. Personally, I don't like to keep the scope up for very long, it does not pay to advertise.

I have the chart symbols on, but only for approaches. I don't correct off the chart, I go by eyeball.

I don't play as much as I used to, and use GFO when I do. Please let me wax eloquent:

* Numbah One: use common sense and Keep It Simple, Simon. I'm trying to enjoy a realistic experience. So, using my knowledge of the USN sub war in the Pacific (not inconsiderable, if I may), I try to have a 'realistic' approach and shoot. Oh, 82% Real, FWIW.

* Get ahead of them and ambush the enemy. Wait for them to walk into your parlor. Make everything as favorable as you can.

* Pick 'em up on radar, get ahead, cruise slowly to the meet. At the right time, drop the boat to radar depth. Track 'em, get a feel for speed. Confirm the 'Slow', 'Medium', messages on the radar icon (yes, I do use the 'on-chart' radar icons - that's my team plotting). Speed. AoB should be a snap, really, and don't sweat the angles, Pythogaros, as you'll see in a sec, within even 15 degrees can be good enough.

* OK, you're at 43 feet. Get the heck down at the right time. You didn't keep the scope up from last Wednesday, did you? Good. Go to 58 feet. Listen to Mr. Sonar, he is your friend, and yes, I use the sonar lines, that's my team again.

* You now are in a very good position to know where they are, how they're pointing, and how fast they're approaching. You are on Silent, right? Good skipper.

* Put your scope up and check out reality against Mr. Sonar. Pick out the best, usually closest, target. All else equal, this is the rule, take the closest, surest target. Do this quickly, very quickly. Get that target in your visual memory, while you lock and punch the Keeper. Put the scope down if it takes more than two Hail Marys.

* ID the target, put the scope back up, if applicable, lock, enter ID, pull Stad down, range her. Put in your best guess to AoB, check out the bow wake, keep in mind what the heck it is, what the intelligence said way back when about the convoy speed - most speeds are between 4 to 9 kts, maybe 12 once in a great while, but the big secret is...

* you did the approach right and you are Deadly Close, under a 1,000 yards, preferably 800, maybe 650. Being George Grider IV, you already have the torps set to Fast and you don't worry about depth settings too much, you already set them to Flavor of the Month two days ago.

* Put the spread from 1.5 to 2.5 degrees, a typical real life spread, and give two totally unexpected gifts to Mr. Merchant. You did open the door, right? Wait for 'Torpedo in the water', do it, it saves on prematures. Swing the scope and go for the second target if you're on a roll and already did the prep and homework for Target Two. Repeat.

*Get the scope down, belay Silent, dive like a banshee, get that temp layer, and reload. If you're good, you can come back for another round. If the IJN is good that day, get outta Dodge.

Don't forget to mark the Nav Map for stragglers and gun candidates.

Go home, be glad you're breathing, let Nimitz tell you what a good boy you are. Marry the girl of your dreams and tell your grandkids you'd rather not talk about it ('cuz you don't).

[Daniel Prates]

I still think the error is coming from the flag issue, it being either computed or not computed as it should.

[PortsmouthProwler]

Well, if the above is on the money, Webster's GFO mod has good optics and stadimeter and ranging - which, in my experience, it does.

And, per my notes above - when you're into 1,000 yards or less, you don't even have to ID the target. Just put in the range, AoB, and speed. Between proximity and even a two torp spread, you'll get good results with a little practice. Depending on the target, three or more. I was playing one of the canned missions and a smallish capital ship swam into view, dead ahead, athwart my course. I dropped all procedure and punched six fish as quick as I could. Scratch one CL.

Do I miss sometimes? Sure, I do. Do I even get killed sometimes? Yup, I do. I wouldn't play a duck shooting arcade game.

[Armistead]

The three minute rule is 100% accurate, why most use it .