duds, duds and more duds

[I'm goin' down]

New campaign in TMO2 + RSRDC. I decided to venture into Tokyo Bay on the first mission (begining on 12/7/41).
1. First merchant - O'Kane method, forward tubes. 3 duds and 1 miss with the wire at 350 degrees, and 2 missed with the wire, etc. reset to 20 degreses.
2, Second merchant - O'Kane method using aft tubes with the wire set at 190 degrees. 1 dud and 1 contact, sinking a Biyu Maru.
3. Third merchant - some sort of tanker. Modified O'Kane using aft tubes with the wire at 0 degrees. 1 dud and my crew did not announce the second contact, so I assume it was a miss and not a dud.
4. Fourth merchant - Yokohama port. Stationary target. 2 contacts, but it did not sink.
5. Fifth merchant - Yokohama port. Stationary target. 2 duds.
6. Sixth merchant - Yokohama port. Stationary target. 2 duds. Sank it with the deck gun.
7. Returned to fifth merchant: Fired two more torpedoes. 2 duds. Sank it with the deck gun.
8. Returned to fourth merchant: Fired two more torpedoes. 2 duds. Ran out of ammunition for the deck gun, and it did not sink.

SUMMARY
Merchants sunk: 3
Torpedoes fired: 20
Total torpedo contacts: 16
Total explosions: 3
Total duds: 13
Total misses: 4
Merchant sunk by torpedoes: 1
Merhant damaged by torpedoes and deck gun: 1
Merchants sunk by deck gun: 2

Torpedo failure rate: Between 65% (13 duds/20 torpedoes, and this assumes the 4 missed shots were not duds) and 81.25% (13 duds/16 torpedeos, and this does not count the 4 missed shots)

All new skippers, there is a lesson to be learned here.

[CSGdesign]

There's a bunch of lessons to be learned here fer me.
Mostly terminology I think. What is an O'Kane method, and what does "wire set to" mean?

And holy moly why so many duds? I've only ever had about 3 duds I think, all contact... I use contact influence now and it's never failed me yet. Still waiting to use it in extremely rough seas though...

[commandosolo2009]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

New campaign in TMO2 + RSRDC. I decided to venture into Tokyo Bay on the first mission (begining on 12/7/41).
1. First merchant - O'Kane method, forward tubes. 3 duds and 1 miss with the wire at 350 degrees, and 2 missed with the wire, etc. reset to 20 degreses.
2, Second merchant - O'Kane method using aft tubes with the wire set at 190 degrees. 1 dud and 1 contact, sinking a Biyu Maru.
3. Third merchant - some sort of tanker. Modified O'Kane using aft tubes with the wire at 0 degrees. 1 dud and my crew did not announce the second contact, so I assume it was a miss and not a dud.
4. Fourth merchant - Yokohama port. Stationary target. 2 contacts, but it did not sink.
5. Fifth merchant - Yokohama port. Stationary target. 2 duds.
6. Sixth merchant - Yokohama port. Stationary target. 2 duds. Sank it with the deck gun.
7. Returned to fifth merchant: Fired two more torpedoes. 2 duds. Sank it with the deck gun.
8. Returned to fourth merchant: Fired two more torpedoes. 2 duds. Ran out of ammunition for the deck gun, and it did not sink.

SUMMARY
Merchants sunk: 3
Torpedoes fired: 20
Total torpedo contacts: 16
Total explosions: 3
Total duds: 13
Total misses: 4
Merchant sunk by torpedoes: 1
Merhant damaged by torpedoes and deck gun: 1
Merchants sunk by deck gun: 2

Torpedo failure rate: Between 65% (13 duds/20 torpedoes, and this assumes the 4 missed shots were not duds) and 81.25% (13 duds/16 torpedeos, and this does not count the 4 missed shots)

All new skippers, there is a lesson to be learned here.

dude, the duds are normal and skippers had their share of it after so much time spent tracking and tdc'ing gyros.. If you dont want them turn them off. But you look like the realistic kind, so, bear with them till 1943

Originally Posted by CSGdesign

There's a bunch of lessons to be learned here fer me.
Mostly terminology I think. What is an O'Kane method, and what does "wire set to" mean?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=144884

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146795

And holy moly why so many duds? I've only ever had about 3 duds I think, all contact... I use contact influence now and it's never failed me yet. Still waiting to use it in extremely rough seas though...

Not advisable, they fail in too great distances or rough seas and waves.

In rough seas however, set pistol to contact and depths immediately under protective belt. Consult SH4 manual or keep in mind the following table

When using an impact detonator, the torpedo should be set to hit the target under the protective
armored belt. In the absence of specific information about your target’s protection, the following
settings should be used:
Target Type Depth
Battleships 20 feet
Heavy Cruisers, Carriers, Large Merchants 12 feet
Light Cruisers, Small Merchants, Submarines 10 feet
Destroyers 6 feet

[I'm goin' down]

[QUOTE=commandosolo2009;1580944]dude, the duds are normal and skippers had their share of it after so much time spent tracking and tdc'ing gyros.. If you dont want them turn them off. But you look like the realistic kind, so, bear with them till 1943

Whom are you referring to as "dude?" I hope you are not referring to me, as I, and many others, knew about the history of defective American torpedoes long before I started the thread, which was obvious as my post concluded with a "warning" to others lacking such knowlege or experience. Further, I never implied or stated that "I don't want them," as you term it, presumably meanng that I was unhappy with the high percentage of dud torpedoes.

As I predicted when I started the thread, a skipper not familiar with the issue posted a response. There is nothing better than a factual history of an attack scenario to make a point, which is how I intended to proceed.

The high ratio of duds reveals something else. My crew has learned how to hit their targets.

[commandosolo2009]

[QUOTE=I'm goin' down;1580960]

Originally Posted by commandosolo2009

dude, the duds are normal and skippers had their share of it after so much time spent tracking and tdc'ing gyros.. If you dont want them turn them off. But you look like the realistic kind, so, bear with them till 1943

Whom are you referring to as "dude?" I hope you are not referring to me, as I, and many others, knew about the history of defective American torpedoes long before I started the thread, which was obvious as my post concluded with a "warning" to others lacking such knowlege or experience. Further, I never implied or stated that "I don't want them," as you term it, presumably meanng that I was unhappy with the high percentage of dud torpedoes.

As I predicted when I started the thread, a skipper not familiar with the issue posted a response. There is nothing better than a factual history of an attack scenario to make a point, which is how I intended to proceed.

The high ratio of duds reveals something else. My crew has learned how to hit their targets.

So, you basically are complaining of their high rate.. hmmm is there anything in the files to change the rate?

[I'm goin' down]

[QUOTE=commandosolo2009;1580978]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

So, you basically are complaining of their high rate.. hmmm is there anything in the files to change the rate?

Incorrect. I made no complaints. I merely provided factual information to help others.

[Dogfish40]

[QUOTE=I'm goin' down;1580960]

Originally Posted by commandosolo2009

dude, the duds are normal and skippers had their share of it after so much time spent tracking and tdc'ing gyros.. If you dont want them turn them off. But you look like the realistic kind, so, bear with them till 1943

Whom are you referring to as "dude?" I hope you are not referring to me, as I, and many others, knew about the history of defective American torpedoes long before I started the thread, which was obvious as my post concluded with a "warning" to others lacking such knowledge or experience. Further, I never implied or stated that "I don't want them," as you term it, presumably meaning that I was unhappy with the high percentage of dud torpedoes.

As I predicted when I started the thread, a skipper not familiar with the issue posted a response. There is nothing better than a factual history of an attack scenario to make a point, which is how I intended to proceed.

The high ratio of duds reveals something else. My crew has learned how to hit their targets.

By the way, in TMO I don't think you can turn off Duds anyway. If you're playing TMO you're stuck with'em. That's one of the realism features that Ducimus felt must stay. I remember reading of one Subs patrol where they had something like 90% of there impacts come back as duds. And we also have to remember that the Skippers were blamed by the Bureau of Ordinance for poor marksmanship. There were some skippers that literally wanted to "throttle" anyone from the "Bureau" they came in contact with. Can you imagine the frustration, not only the frustration of not sinking ships that should have been kills but then to be blamed for it by your own navy.
Rock on "I'm goin down", Keep the posts coming.
D40

[I'm goin' down]

Originally Posted by CSGdesign

There's a bunch of lessons to be learned here fer me.
Mostly terminology I think. What is an O'Kane method, and what does "wire set to" mean?

And holy moly why so many duds? I've only ever had about 3 duds I think, all contact... I use contact influence now and it's never failed me yet. Still waiting to use it in extremely rough seas though...

First, welcome aboard captain.

Dick O'Kane in its classic sense refers to a broadside attack where your boat's torpedoes and the target collide as the target passes the bow of your boat. In the basic Dick O'Kane attack, the bow of your boat is lined up with the target's course at a 90 degree angle. The firing point is the bearing (for example, at a bearing of 350 degrees) where you fire torpedoes so they will hit the target at roughly 0 degrees, when the target is broadside to your boat. The torpedo data computer will compute the lead angle if your set up is correct, so that when you fire as the ship crosses the wire (i.e. at a bearing of 350 degrees) the torpedo will hit the target. It will compute the lead angle even if the Postion Keeper is not activated. The firing point (i.e. at a bearing of 350 degrees) is also referred to as the wire. The firing point will change depending on the target's speed, as Rockin Robbins explains in his tutorial on the Dick O'kane method. This is a simplified explanation, and the point of intercept can be at a different point ( at a different bearing), and you can use the O'Kane theory at various angles once you are skilled. Read the thread in the Skipper's Bag of Tricks sticky created by Rockin Robbins to learn about this and other attack techniques, such as the Cromwell method, the constant bearing technique, etc. Also, take a look at manual targeting using the TDC. Hitman has a classic tutorial on the subject, which will teach you the theory. Also, see gutted's stand alone Solution Solver program which will compute the a lead angle for a shot at any angle to the target's course if you input the target's course and speed accurately.

As for dud torpedoes, are you playing with "dud torpedoes" enabled? If not, you will have no duds. If they are enabled, in the early war the Dept of the Navy screwed the submariners by ignoring field reports that US torpedoes ran too deep, exploded prematurely, and it disregarded information hat the contact influence torpedoe settings were not working properly. Many early war torpedoes were duds. This problem has been incorporated into SH4, so in the early war, set your torpedoes to run shallow (I set them to run at 5-6 feet against merchants), and I do not recommend using contact influence for reasons already stated. Again, if dud torpedoes are disabled, you won't experience a dud torpedoe problem.

Read the links posted by solo also.

[CSGdesign]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

First, welcome aboard captain.

Spanks.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Dick O'Kane in its classic sence refers to a broadside attack ...

K I gathered that. I thought from what I read from the link provided by commandosolo2009 (thanks!!) that it referred to the technique of lining up the three compartments, first stern then MOT [yet to learn what exactly that is - but midship somewhere i assume] and then bow... from what you're saying it's more the name giving to firing on a target from a right-angle... which is pretty much what I'm doing now anyway.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

The firing point (i.e. at a bearing of 350 degrees) is also referred to as the wire.

Thankyou for your explanation... however to my completely new-to-this mind you've just replaced one name "the wire" with another name "the firing point". What does a "firing point" refer to. I'm totally unfamiliar with all terminology, I've just picked up the game and started playing and teaching myself the history and terminology and techniques and such to get more immersed in role-playing the game...

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Also, take a look at manual targeting using the TDC. Hitman has a classic tutorial on the subject, which will teach you the theory. Also, see gutted's stand alone Solution Solver program which will compute the a lead angle for a shot at any angle to the target's course if you input the target's course and speed accurately.

I've played with manual targeting awhile ago while I was even fresher than I am now, and I got absolutely mauled by a couple of destroyers. I'm learning other techniques (like identifying targets by sound, plotting intercept courses, that kind of thing) before re-attempting that, but I'm ready to start pretty soon so I will certainly be looking into it... I've bookmarked that page commandosolo2009 linked. Is Hitman's on that? I don't recall now while I'm editing this post.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

As for dud torpedoes, are you playing with "dud torpedoes" enabled?

Yep, I'm playing on as accurate as possible, except I've enabled external cam (purely for the sake of creating screenshots for the journal - I don't use it to evade enemies or anything like that since I enjoy the realism of using sound stations and such) and I've disabled manual targeting cuz otherwise I get rolled by a pair of sampans. Those little buggers scare me when I'm manual!

I only had a couple of dud's off the bow of a stationery tanker once... never (thankfully) during an actual attack on like a destroyer or anything. As I said I've been using only contact influence from very short ranges (1000 to 1500 yards) and they've all worked marvelously. I used the external camera initially to gauge the depth that they went to and figured out that if you set the depth to about 5 - 6 feet above the identification manual's declared draft for any particular vessel that it would impact pretty much smack bang underneath the boat, maximising damage by blasting upwards through the hull.

I was made aware of the historical depth problem by a friend of mine (one of my global moderators) on my own forum, Shilka, who knows a bit more about the game than I do and brought me up to speed quite fast on a few topics like that, and pointed me here.

Thanks very much for your kind help, I really appreciate you taking the time... it's easily the best simulator that I've ever played... I'm loving it from day 1.

[razark]

Originally Posted by CSGdesign

Thankyou for your explanation... however to my completely new-to-this mind you've just replaced one name "the wire" with another name "the firing point". What does a "firing point" refer to. I'm totally unfamiliar with all terminology, I've just picked up the game and started playing and teaching myself the history and terminology and techniques and such to get more immersed in role-playing the game...

The terminology is so much fun to learn!

Firing Point- the point at which you fire. By doing all sorts of hocus-pocus with angles and speeds and target courses, you determine what point on the map you want to fire your torpedoes from. You then get the fun task of making sure your boat arrives at this point when the target is where it is supposed to be.

The wire- the vertical line running through the periscope view. If you set up the Dick O'Kane Attack (A method developed for manual targeting that lets you ignore range), you wait until the part of the ship you want to hit is crossing the central wire in the periscope. If you have it set up, the torpedo will hit that part, allowing you to aim for engines, fuel, magazines, etc.

[I'm goin' down]

Originally Posted by razark

The terminology is so much fun to learn!

Firing Point- the point at which you fire. By doing all sorts of hocus-pocus with angles and speeds and target courses, you determine what point on the map you want to fire your torpedoes from. You then get the fun task of making sure your boat arrives at this point when the target is where it is supposed to be.

The wire- the vertical line running through the periscope view. If you set up the Dick O'Kane Attack (A method developed for manual targeting that lets you ignore range), you wait until the part of the ship you want to hit is crossing the central wire in the periscope. If you have it set up, the torpedo will hit that part, allowing you to aim for engines, fuel, magazines, etc.

Razark is correct. If you plan on firing when the target passes a periscope reading of 350 degrees (this is the same as saying the target is at a bearing of 350 degrees when you fire), that is the firing point. Razark enlightens us by noting that if you run a length of wire from your boat until it intersects the target's course at a 350 degree bearing (i.e. the firing point) someone coined the terminology that you are firing when the target has "crossed the wire." (Can we blame Rockin Robbins for first using that term?) If you fire before the target crosses the wire you will probably miss, as the torpedo will likely cross the target's course before the target reaches the projected impact point. If you fire after the target has crosses the wire, you will probably miss, as the torpedoes will likely cross the target's course aft of its stern. if you fire when the ship crosses the wire, under the O'Kane method, you will probably hit the target at or near the projected impact point as calculated by the TDC (torpedo data computer) even though it has not been activated.

Here is a post that I authored. It is in the Skipper's Bag of Tricks thread. It gives you an idea of how the TDC computes the lead angle even though it is not activated. Note, Rockin Robbins uses a 10 degree lead angle for target's moving at speeds of 15 kts. or slower. He uses a lead angle of 20 degree for target's traveling at speeds of greater than 15 kts. If you follow his rules, you are attacking with the Dick O'Kane attack technique. He has posted a link to a video tutorial on the subject. You will understand this a lot better if you read the Dick O'Kane thread in the sticky. Dick O'Kane, by the way, was a famous WW2 Navy Sub Captain, possibly the most famous.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=167

Oh yea. There is a lot to learn here--an unbelievable amount. I knew nothing (i.e. "zero") when I started, and Robbins presented me with an award when I finally sunk a ship with auto targeting. After a few weeks of thinking I was the best shot on the forum, I read, studied and practiced Hitman's tutorial on Manual Targeting at 100 Percent Realism, and discovered I new "NOTHING." Wait until you wander into the MoBo forum and tackle aaronblood's MoBo program. The man is a genius. Or, Nisgeis's 3D TDC radar mod. And then there is the Easy Aob mod perfected by nicolas and ddrgn, a simple manual targeting fix that revolutionized the game a few years ago, followed shortly after by gutted's Solution Solver program. And finally, if you have the bent, you can navigate using the stars if you can master Celestial Navigation--something I have not been able to do despite trying. These are just a few of the many, many mods that provide "fixes" to the game. There are many skipper's who have been around quite awhile, and will answer your questions. Don't forget to use key words to search the forums, as many questions you have, such as the ones posted here, have been addressed in other posts or threads. You might want to go to the Mod forum and download period music and radio station programs from the War, so you have something to listen to as you meander around the Pacific. For kicks, I follow the SH5 realistic photo thread, as Gunfighter (see my signature below) and Otto post some incredible screen shots, some of which are photo quality, and one new skipper has recently made a short movie for You Tube where he interjected his 10 year old son as the captain of a sub on an attack run.

[CptChacal]

Originally Posted by CSGdesign

Thankyou for your explanation... however to my completely new-to-this mind you've just replaced one name "the wire" with another name "the firing point". What does a "firing point" refer to. I'm totally unfamiliar with all terminology, I've just picked up the game and started playing and teaching myself the history and terminology and techniques and such to get more immersed in role-playing the game...

All this vocabulary comes from historical sources. I can only suggest reading the fleet submarine handbook online for the official terms, and books like O'Kane's "Clear the bridge!" which show how they were used by sub crews, along with some less-official terms. Such books are all over amazon.com.

[razark]

Originally Posted by CptChacal

All this vocabulary comes from historical sources. I can only suggest reading the fleet submarine handbook online for the official terms, and books like O'Kane's "Clear the bridge!" which show how they were used by sub crews, along with some less-official terms. Such books are all over amazon.com.

Here's a couple to get started on. I know I need to read through them in detail.
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/subphrase/index.htm

Here's the list of sub documents available there, and there's quite a bit more, if you want it:
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/index.htm#sub