Speculate for $h!t$ and giggles...

Bothersome · 08-19-10, 04:30 PM

Speculate for me on the idea that Japan DID NOT engage the USA during WW2. Tell me how you think the war would have turned out and what would Japan be like today.

My thinking, is that we would have won the war in Europe quicker. Japan would have taken most if not all the island lands around Japan's reach. They would have eventually secured the resources they needed to wage more war against China and others. All the while playing nice with the USA to keep us out of the theater there. Being that we would eventually be strained against the ongoing war in Europe, we'd have had no choice but to avoid conflict with Japan. Thus giving Japan a free reign to do what it wants to its' enemies.

Of course, I'm probably way off base here.

tater · 08-19-10, 05:00 PM

HP Willmott mentions such a scenario in passing in one of his (great, BTW) books. Either Empires in the Balance, or Barrier and Javelin.

Anyway, I think that is the only plausible scenario with a positive outcome for Japan. India, for example, was rife with discontent, and the right kind of Japanese statesmanship could easily have pushed her over the edge into the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere." Ditto the critically important (for Japan), NEI.

Make no mistake, I think the US would still have ended up in the war with Japan, though perhaps slightly later. Ditto the ETO, the US would not have entered the war without PH, then the German Declaration vs the US on the 11th.

Look at December 6th (PH time, the 7th farther West). Japan already had Thailand as a client State. Ditto French Indochina (Viet Nam).

Instead of pissing off the US, they should have played the card of ejecting European colonial powers—along with actually setting up governments that were actually local. Instead, they brutalized their "liberated" peoples, and lost all the initial good will they had.

Such a scenario requires a large cultural change in the Japanese starting with the Meiji Restoration, IMHO. As it was, they were a brutal occupying force, ready to be set loose.

Still, an interesting scenario.

Ducimus · 08-19-10, 05:03 PM

Quote:

My thinking, is that we would have won the war in Europe quicker.

Doubt it. If anything it would have taken longer.

The thing is, American opinion about the war was sharply divided. Isolationism was a common sentiment. Many still had memories of WW1, and what was going on was seen as a European problem. Not an American one. Attacking us, and unifying public opinion was the worst thing Japan could have done.

Now Roosevelt was supporting Britain on the side, in an under the table kind of fashion, so it's a reasonable assumption we would have been dragged into it eventually anyway, but id say that wouldn't have happened for another year or two. However, Britain was standing alone. How long could it have lasted? I dunno, but that would have been another year or two without the full weight of the (now nearly non existant) American industrial might.

Nisgeis · 08-19-10, 05:19 PM

My Politico-meter is fluctuating around 'warning', just under 'danger'. Let's hope it doesn't swing all the way over to 'General Topics Strength'.

By the way Duci, 'Briton' is a British person, 'Britain' is the island

. Not having a go, just for reference

.

Japan had fuel shortages, due to the embargo, so they had to do something to keep their economy going and would still have needed to secure fuel, probably in another military way, but yeah attacking America galvanised public opinion. There's always been conspiracy over how much the US knew and how the carriers just happened to be out that day, but at that time all the top brass were battleship guys.

I'm not sure about how succesful co-ercing another nation into an uprising would be, as Germany didn't manage to convince Mexico to invade the US.

Ducimus · 08-19-10, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

By the way Duci, 'Briton' is a British person, 'Britain' is the island

. Not having a go, just for reference

.
.

Fixed.

Meh. Brit's, tommy's, whatever.

Stealhead · 08-19-10, 07:04 PM

If some of the theories of Quantum physics are true in some universe the US and Japan never went to war and every other possibility.

Though the US was generally isolationist there where a number of Americans that supported the Chinese in the 30's in fact some thought that in 30s that we might go to war with Japan over China.

That and Japan had such limited resources she had to either attack the US or the Dutch(Dutch East Indies) England and that fate was sealed when the US placed the embargo against Japan due to its actions in China.

Basically Japanese need for land and resources made warfare with the US un-avoidable.The Japanese also considered the US as a Colonial power in Asia we controlled the Philippines which also had many useful resources that Japan needed and felt they had the right to control by any means."An Asia for Asians" was a Japanese motto at the time though really it should have been "An Asia for the Japanese". The only way it could have been different would be if perhaps a different power had been in control of Japan during the first half of the 20th century.

CaptainMattJ. · 08-20-10, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

If some of the theories of Quantum physics are true in some universe the US and Japan never went to war and every other possibility.

Though the US was generally isolationist there where a number of Americans that supported the Chinese in the 30's in fact some thought that in 30s that we might go to war with Japan over China.

That and Japan had such limited resources she had to either attack the US or the Dutch(Dutch East Indies) England and that fate was sealed when the US placed the embargo against Japan due to its actions in China.

Basically Japanese need for land and resources made warfare with the US un-avoidable.The Japanese also considered the US as a Colonial power in Asia we controlled the Philippines which also had many useful resources that Japan needed and felt they had the right to control by any means."An Asia for Asians" was a Japanese motto at the time though really it should have been "An Asia for the Japanese". The only way it could have been different would be if perhaps a different power had been in control of Japan during the first half of the 20th century.

Quantum physics doesnt address the theory of alternate universes. thats the string theory. And no. if the Japanese hadnt been rapped up with us so early, they wouldve taken all non U.S islands. if the U.S didnt declare war by then considering them as a major threat, they most likely wouldve built up, and attacked russia perhaps. the russians barely won vs the germans. only strategic victories were won by the russians. overwhleming forces came later. if the russians had to fight the japs AND germans.......? well..... im not sure. the japs had naval power. their army was ****, and they had BAD tanks. Air power wouldve solved that problem, though. zero vs yak/Ilyushin the zero would probably win. the surface fleet would sail on ruskies coast, hitting them wherever they could. providing closer air support with carriers.

The russians wouldve had their tanks go against the germans for the most part. but the russians kept their tank factories and ammo facs on the east coast, so the japs would bomb them down. the russians wouldve probably lost. then the U.S would pretty much assuredly get into the war. if britain hadnt been completely destroyed, they mightve had a chance. after russia was conquered the germans would be able to divert more towards britain and africa. either one or both wouldve fell. africa most likely, then Hitler would get access to the suez, get more supplies, and be even stronger. plus the U.S would also have to face the japs, cept they wouldve had their battleships. not like it wouldve mattered though unless they gave them adequate air cover.

after that i wouldnt have a clue what could happen

WernherVonTrapp · 08-19-10, 07:10 PM

In my opinion, I think the war with Japan was inevitable and, if not on Dec. 7th, 1941, then in a proximity not far from that date. You have to remember Japan's overall sentiment toward the United States at the time. Besides feeling as if the Washington Conference (of 1921/22 I think) was directed specifically toward them, by the U.S., in an effort to stem Japanese interests in the Pacific (I know, an oversimplified perspective), they also felt left out and betrayed after their WWI alliance with the U.S./Great Britain (i.e., Treaty of Versailles stuff). Add to that the oil and steel embargo, which the Japanese desperately needed at that time, being (after all) an island, they had really no choice but to time the Dec. 7th attack with their desire to capture the oil reserves of the Dutch East Indies. Don't forget, the Japanese people were in an increasingly impoverished state at the beginning of their expansionist efforts in 1935 China. This, they attributed to the betrayal by the U.S. for their efforts in WWI. The Washington Conference and the Oil/Scrap Metal embargo that followed raised Japanese anti-American sentiments to a feverish state.
Had all these factors come to a head earlier, or perhaps later, in history, then I think there might be some question as to the timing of a war with Japan, and if that war would have ever occurred. Why do you think Gen. Billy Mitchell and Admiral Richmond Kelly Turner were already predicting a war with Japan many years before 1941 in the first place? Because, under all the circumstances at that time, it was inevitable and, in the foreseeable future. Ahh, but we're just speculating right?
Anyway, a great book which spells it all out in great detail is, "The Eagle and the Rising Sun" by Alan Schom.

Sailor Steve · 08-19-10, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Fixed.

Meh. Brit's, tommy's, whatever.

Well, technically "tommies" is the plural. "Tommy's" indicates something owned by Tommy.

Same goes for "Brits" and "Brit's".

Stealhead · 08-19-10, 10:47 PM

Let us not forget about War Plan Orange which had its origins way back even before WWI.I think the US got concerned long term about Japan after they beat the Russian Navy in 1905 this event proved they where a threat way back then.

We really got lucky at Pearl as well sorry I am not into the conspires we new an attack was possible but not the exact time and place and at the same time we where very complaisant and looked down on the Japanese as being inferior and not capable of such tact(they often had the same view of us),had they have destroyed our carriers at Pearl or been able to sink most of them in 1942 they would more or less have had total domination of the Pacific WWII in the Pacific was much closer than many people realize.

08-19-10, 04:30 PM	#1
Bothersome Planesman Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 194 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	Speculate for $h!t$ and giggles... Speculate for me on the idea that Japan DID NOT engage the USA during WW2. Tell me how you think the war would have turned out and what would Japan be like today. My thinking, is that we would have won the war in Europe quicker. Japan would have taken most if not all the island lands around Japan's reach. They would have eventually secured the resources they needed to wage more war against China and others. All the while playing nice with the USA to keep us out of the theater there. Being that we would eventually be strained against the ongoing war in Europe, we'd have had no choice but to avoid conflict with Japan. Thus giving Japan a free reign to do what it wants to its' enemies. Of course, I'm probably way off base here.

08-19-10, 05:19 PM	#4
Nisgeis Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,909 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 11	My Politico-meter is fluctuating around 'warning', just under 'danger'. Let's hope it doesn't swing all the way over to 'General Topics Strength'. By the way Duci, 'Briton' is a British person, 'Britain' is the island . Not having a go, just for reference . Japan had fuel shortages, due to the embargo, so they had to do something to keep their economy going and would still have needed to secure fuel, probably in another military way, but yeah attacking America galvanised public opinion. There's always been conspiracy over how much the US knew and how the carriers just happened to be out that day, but at that time all the top brass were battleship guys. I'm not sure about how succesful co-ercing another nation into an uprising would be, as Germany didn't manage to convince Mexico to invade the US. __________________ -------------------------------- This space left intentionally blank.

08-19-10, 07:10 PM	#8
WernherVonTrapp Admiral Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Now, alot farther from NYC. Posts: 2,228 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 0	In my opinion, I think the war with Japan was inevitable and, if not on Dec. 7th, 1941, then in a proximity not far from that date. You have to remember Japan's overall sentiment toward the United States at the time. Besides feeling as if the Washington Conference (of 1921/22 I think) was directed specifically toward them, by the U.S., in an effort to stem Japanese interests in the Pacific (I know, an oversimplified perspective), they also felt left out and betrayed after their WWI alliance with the U.S./Great Britain (i.e., Treaty of Versailles stuff). Add to that the oil and steel embargo, which the Japanese desperately needed at that time, being (after all) an island, they had really no choice but to time the Dec. 7th attack with their desire to capture the oil reserves of the Dutch East Indies. Don't forget, the Japanese people were in an increasingly impoverished state at the beginning of their expansionist efforts in 1935 China. This, they attributed to the betrayal by the U.S. for their efforts in WWI. The Washington Conference and the Oil/Scrap Metal embargo that followed raised Japanese anti-American sentiments to a feverish state. Had all these factors come to a head earlier, or perhaps later, in history, then I think there might be some question as to the timing of a war with Japan, and if that war would have ever occurred. Why do you think Gen. Billy Mitchell and Admiral Richmond Kelly Turner were already predicting a war with Japan many years before 1941 in the first place? Because, under all the circumstances at that time, it was inevitable and, in the foreseeable future. Ahh, but we're just speculating right? Anyway, a great book which spells it all out in great detail is, "The Eagle and the Rising Sun" by Alan Schom. __________________ "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." -Miyamoto Musashi ------------------------------------------------------- "What is truth?" -Pontius Pilate

08-19-10, 05:00 PM	#2
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	HP Willmott mentions such a scenario in passing in one of his (great, BTW) books. Either Empires in the Balance, or Barrier and Javelin. Anyway, I think that is the only plausible scenario with a positive outcome for Japan. India, for example, was rife with discontent, and the right kind of Japanese statesmanship could easily have pushed her over the edge into the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere." Ditto the critically important (for Japan), NEI. Make no mistake, I think the US would still have ended up in the war with Japan, though perhaps slightly later. Ditto the ETO, the US would not have entered the war without PH, then the German Declaration vs the US on the 11th. Look at December 6th (PH time, the 7th farther West). Japan already had Thailand as a client State. Ditto French Indochina (Viet Nam). Instead of pissing off the US, they should have played the card of ejecting European colonial powers—along with actually setting up governments that were actually local. Instead, they brutalized their "liberated" peoples, and lost all the initial good will they had. Such a scenario requires a large cultural change in the Japanese starting with the Meiji Restoration, IMHO. As it was, they were a brutal occupying force, ready to be set loose. Still, an interesting scenario.

08-19-10, 07:04 PM	#6
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	If some of the theories of Quantum physics are true in some universe the US and Japan never went to war and every other possibility. Though the US was generally isolationist there where a number of Americans that supported the Chinese in the 30's in fact some thought that in 30s that we might go to war with Japan over China. That and Japan had such limited resources she had to either attack the US or the Dutch(Dutch East Indies) England and that fate was sealed when the US placed the embargo against Japan due to its actions in China. Basically Japanese need for land and resources made warfare with the US un-avoidable.The Japanese also considered the US as a Colonial power in Asia we controlled the Philippines which also had many useful resources that Japan needed and felt they had the right to control by any means."An Asia for Asians" was a Japanese motto at the time though really it should have been "An Asia for the Japanese". The only way it could have been different would be if perhaps a different power had been in control of Japan during the first half of the 20th century.

08-19-10, 10:47 PM	#10
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Let us not forget about War Plan Orange which had its origins way back even before WWI.I think the US got concerned long term about Japan after they beat the Russian Navy in 1905 this event proved they where a threat way back then. We really got lucky at Pearl as well sorry I am not into the conspires we new an attack was possible but not the exact time and place and at the same time we where very complaisant and looked down on the Japanese as being inferior and not capable of such tact(they often had the same view of us),had they have destroyed our carriers at Pearl or been able to sink most of them in 1942 they would more or less have had total domination of the Pacific WWII in the Pacific was much closer than many people realize.